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The Lakota way of life

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 10 Apr 2009, 20:18:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')lains peoples did develop ways of fighting for honor which didn't involve killing each other. In territorial disputes, simply wounding a warrior of the other tribe was sufficient ("counting coup").


Yeah. Counting coup often didn't even require wounding the quarry. The most honored way of doing it was to just sneak up on the enemy and touch him with a coup stick. OTOH, it was also pretty common that they would sneak up and kill the guy watching an enemy horse herd and steal all the horses.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s you say there was not usually the impulse to wipe out the other tribes or turn Crow into Lakota. So I would argue, no, not all people held "2.


Sorry. I misspoke. I agree #2 was not common. Abrahamic religions compulsively evangelize. In most Native American religions, you must prove yourself before anyone tells you anything spiritually. You earn spiritual teaching in native religions. I meant to say #1 and #3. I do think that Lebensraum is a common issue for all cultures. It's hard to say how much pressure there was way back when. The best historical accounts of native life come from the plains tribes, but by that point they were under severe lebensraum pressure due to European encroachment. There is a fair amount of evidence that the Lakota, for example, weren't even plains tribes originally. They probably got forced out of the midwest woodlands due to the cascade of lebensraum pressures. About the same time the Spanish introduced horses were starting to make plains living a much more viable alternative.

Feeling the need to impose its belief system (i.e. religion) on others". If one's own tribe was "The People" that didn't mean everyone else would be forced to be "The People" also. They would instead be "The Enemy" or possibly "those folks over there who do strange things" or "those folks over there whom we don't like much."[/quote]
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 11 Apr 2009, 03:45:54

Except that we have better technology for killing and destroying? The human nature remains but is its destructive (and beneficial) aspects multiplied many times more given such technology?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Boris555', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'N')othing special about us, either?


Not a damn thing that I can think of.

I spend a lot of time out on the farm trying to make things and grow things the way our ancestors did. It's amazing how quickly you go from the rhythms of working in an office to the rhythms of primitive man.

But when I'm sitting under a shelter made of sticks and leaves, I don't look forward to going back into the office when Monday morning comes, even though sitting at a desk in a climate controlled building is much more comfortable. But when sitting at my desk I do daydream about being under the shelter of sticks and leaves, roasting a hunk of meat over a small fire, sleeping next to a bunch of dogs...

So you all know what I'll be doing in a few hours. Make fire, make tool. Caveman, no fool.
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 11 Apr 2009, 03:50:35

John Keegan wrote something about this in The Face of Battle and The Mask of Command, and from what I remember he argued that what usually deterred people was face-to-face confrontation. This disappeared with better, long-ranged weapons and mass, mechanized warfare that we have since developed, leading even to weapons of mass destruction that can be triggered from many km away, without even seeing the enemy's faces.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')The Crow kills the Lakota. The Lakota kills the Crow. There is balance, and the circle continues. It's not about stasis. It's about dynamic equilibria.


Plains peoples did develop ways of fighting for honor which didn't involve killing each other. In territorial disputes, simply wounding a warrior of the other tribe was sufficient ("counting coup").

As you say there was not usually the impulse to wipe out the other tribes or turn Crow into Lakota. So I would argue, no, not all people held "2. Feeling the need to impose its belief system (i.e. religion) on others". If one's own tribe was "The People" that didn't mean everyone else would be forced to be "The People" also. They would instead be "The Enemy" or possibly "those folks over there who do strange things" or "those folks over there whom we don't like much."
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby paimei01 » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 17:13:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen there's the secretive Tarahumara tribe, the best long-distance runners in the world. These are a people who live in basic conditions in Mexico, often in caves without running water, and run with only strips of old tyre or leather thongs strapped to the bottom of their feet. They are virtually barefoot.

Come race day, the Tarahumara don't train. They don't stretch or warm up. They just stroll to the starting line, laughing and bantering, and then go for it, ultra-running for two full days, sometimes covering over 300 miles, non-stop. For the fun of it. One of them recently came first in a prestigious 100-mile race wearing nothing but a toga and sandals. He was 57 years old.

When it comes to preparation, the Tarahumara prefer more of a Mardi Gras approach. In terms of diet, lifestyle and training technique, they're a track coach's nightmare. They drink like New Year's Eve is a weekly event, tossing back enough corn-based beer and homemade tequila brewed from rattlesnake corpses to floor an army.

Unlike their Western counterparts, the Tarahumara don't replenish their bodies with electrolyte-rich sports drinks. They don't rebuild between workouts with protein bars; in fact, they barely eat any protein at all, living on little more than ground corn spiced up by their favourite delicacy, barbecued mouse.

How come they're not crippled?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive ... money.html
For those who say that the hunters gatherers of 150 years ago lived hard lives, diseases and stuff like that. No they did not. Had none of the disease that appear because of our sedentary life style or our overcrowding, and our poisonous modern environment.

Something from George Orwell:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')"He must be cut off from the past. . . because it is necessary for him to believe that he is better off than his ancestors and that the average level of material comfort is constantly rising."
--George Orwell, 1984
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One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 16:29:37

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/article ... ntcmg3.txt

Kind of a dicey thing for the Sioux nations. Do you accept reparations
for the Black Hills in the form of money or hold out for their improbable
return?

I wonder if they still leave coup sticks on the grave markers of Custer's
7th Cavalry every year?
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 16:51:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', 'K')ind of a dicey thing for the Sioux nations. Do you accept reparations
for the Black Hills in the form of money or hold out for their improbable
return?


No brainer. Money gets spent and you still have nothing. The Black Hills are the heart of the Lakota.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby bratticus » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 22:17:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Sequoyah's Talking Leaves

Realizing a key to development of the Cherokee Nation was a written language, Sequoyah began work on a graphic representation of the Cherokee language. The syllabary, officially listed as being completed in 1821, took 12 years to create. Sequoyah came up with the idea of "Talking Leaves" when he visited Chief Charles Hicks, who showed him how to write his name so he could sign his work like American silversmiths had begun to do.

Initially, Sequoyah tried pictographs, but soon discovered that the number of symbols in the Cherokee language would be in the thousands. Then he began to create symbols for each syllable the Cherokees use. This was the essential step in creating the syllabary. Sequoyah's written language was not the first example of the concept. A Japanese syllabary was developed from 5th century A. D. Chinese ideographic writing. The concept of an alphabet, which denotes sounds instead of syllables, originated in Phoenicia.
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 05 May 2009, 05:16:34

Observing a prisoner exchange between the Iroquois and the French in upper New York in
1699, Cadwallader Colden is blunt: “ notwithstanding the French Commissioners took all the
Pains possible to carry Home the French, that were Prisoners with the Five Nations, and they
had full Liberty from the Indians, few of them could be persuaded to return. “Nor, he has to
admit, is this merely a reflection on the quality of French colonial life, “for the English had as
much Difficulty” in persuading their redeemed to come home, despite what Colden would
claim were the obvious superiority of English ways:

No Arguments, no Intreaties, nor Tears of their Friends and Relations, could persuade many
of them to leave their new Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the
Caressings of their Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time grew tired of our
Manner of living, and run away again to the Indians, and ended their Days with them. On the
other Hand, Indian Children have been carefully educated among the English, cloathed and
taught, yet, I think, there is not one Instance, that any of these, after they had Liberty to go
among their own People, and were come to Age, would remain with the English, but returned
to their own Nations, and became as fond of the Indian Manner of Life as those that knew
nothing of a civilized Manner of Living. And, he concludes, what he says of this particular
prisoner exchange “has been found true on many other Occasions.”

Benjamin Franklin was even more pointed: When an Indian child is raised in white civilization,
he remarks, the civilizing somehow does not stick, and at the first opportunity he will go back
to his red relations, from whence there is no hope whatever of redeeming him. But when white
persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and have lived a while
among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to
prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with
our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first
good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them.

There was always the great woods, and the life to
be lived within it was, Crevecoeur admits, “singularly captivating,” perhaps even superior to
that so boasted of by the transplanted Europeans. For, as many knew to their rueful
amazement, “thousands of Europeans are Indians, and we have no examples of even one of
those aborigines having from choice become Europeans!”


Frederick Turner: Beyond Geography: The Western Spirit Against the Wilderness (1980)
John Zerzan: Against Civilization - Readings and Reflections (1999)
Last edited by paimei01 on Tue 05 May 2009, 06:04:16, edited 2 times in total.
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One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Tue 05 May 2009, 05:25:53

yeah, if only we could still have the opportunity to "go native" I sure as hell would.
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 05 May 2009, 13:25:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'y')eah, if only we could still have the opportunity to "go native" I sure as hell would.



There's plenty of open land in Canada and Alaska. You can go native there with little problem. Also a great deal of open land in the desert Southwest. So if you really wanted to go native, you could. :)

But few people really want to, because it is very difficult if you're alone and/or not raised up that way.
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 05 May 2009, 23:50:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'B')ut few people really want to, because it is very difficult if you're alone and/or not raised up that way.


Ummm...no natives lived alone. The worst punishment that the Lokota ever used against one of their own was to kick them out and make them go it alone. It was generally a death sentence.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Wed 06 May 2009, 03:06:37

Well, this thread got me started. I researched how the natives out here survived and signed up for a stalking the edible wild course. I hope it teaches me more than I already know, but what the hell. I also scored a killer, gently used backpack today. (I needed a new one since mine died after 20 years of use... I miss it, it was like a friend.)

Got the news today the kids are leaving at the end of june for up to 5 weeks, so I am going to do it... for the little time I have. I am going to take some time off and go check things out. (not two whole months, I wish but there's no one they can find to do my job, so I can only take a couple weeks, but hey, better than nothing)

When I talked about going native it was inreference to the articles posted where whites would go and live with the natives. But none of the natives I know do that. Though I do know a blackfoot in the area that might be up to it... I'd probably kill him after a week...he talks too much.
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 06 May 2009, 09:21:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')
Ummm...no natives lived alone.



Ummmm.....I know that. :)
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 06 May 2009, 09:23:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', '
')When I talked about going native it was inreference to the articles posted where whites would go and live with the natives



Oh ok, my mistake. I thought you meant you wanted to leave civilization and go live like a native. :)
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 06 May 2009, 09:25:15

Not Lakota, but this guy was a god!
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 06 May 2009, 10:55:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'N')ot Lakota, but this guy was a god!


There was a very interesting hour long documentary about Geronimo on PBS Tuesday night. He was definitely not a one sided character. For example, at one point he kidnapped several hundred other Chiricahuas from the reservation and forced them at gunpoint to come live with him in the mountains. Although he was a very successful warrior, he was never made a chief because he was too impulsive. He became iconic to whites when he started doing the traveling wild west shows. Meanwhile the rest of the Chiricahuas were stuck in a Florida prison mostly because of his actions. He was a man who reacted with predictable anger to having his entire family murdered by whites and he fought fiercly. He definitely wasn't the kind of careful leader who considers how his actions will affect the rest of the tribe.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 07 May 2009, 01:24:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'I') notice many Europeans love to romanticise about Indians (Native Americans)

I grew up 3 miles from an Indian reservation in northern Canada. No romantic notions for me.
Some of them were OK. The rest, well........no point getting into that here.

I live in a white settler colony in southern Canada. No romantic notions for me.
Some of them are OK. The rest, well........no point getting into that here.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Thu 07 May 2009, 02:17:51

I'm related to half the soda creek reserve and 1/4 the 150 mile reserve. I've had friends all my life that were Kwakiutl, bella bella and bella coola. I have a metis friend, a cree BIL and blackfoot buddy. I grew up a dozen miles from kitksan and kitwanga tribes. I have no illusions about them, but I know they are no more or less than any man. There is great promise and great sadness behind each mans eyes.

Make that two metis... anyone else up for a week long challenge this summer?
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby paimei01 » Thu 07 May 2009, 05:28:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'I') notice many Europeans love to romanticise about Indians (Native Americans)

I grew up 3 miles from an Indian reservation in northern Canada. No romantic notions for me.
Some of them were OK. The rest, well........no point getting into that here.

I live in a white settler colony in southern Canada. No romantic notions for me.
Some of them are OK. The rest, well........no point getting into that here.


They are not a tribe anymore. Just "poor" people. "Civilized".

I am not talking about them, I am talking about the ones from 150 years ago. See my above post. Why did those settlers chose to remain with the Indians that had captured them ? Family and friends did not matter anymore, even the ones "saved" from the Indians returned to them after some time.

Aren't we the best ? What is there not to like about "us" ? Crazy people ! Must be some voodoo magic at work !

But there is no "us". Tell me where do you find the "us". That is what the settlers found on the "other side", that is why they never wanted to return. A "us" a tribe, a community, something like the mafia. And no "work". Freedom. How can I call myself free when my lifestyle requires me to be "at work" 8 hours a day ? And no where I chose. Nothing to chose. Look I can "vote" for someone I will never even see. I can speak what I want (sometimes in some places) ! I am free !

I am also "free" to "get rich" and have lots of stuff, and lots of slaves to do stuff for me else I fire them - so they work for me because their survival is threatened. Isn't that nice. Is all I wanted in life.To say you don't want these things is tabu.

http://www.primitivism.com/leviathan.htm
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he managers of Gulag's islands tell us that the swimmers, crawlers, walkers and fliers spent their lives working in order to eat.

These managers are broadcasting their news too soon. The varied beings haven't all been exterminated yet. You, reader, have only to mingle with them, or just watch them from a distance, to see that their waking lives are filled with dances, games and feasts. Even the hunt, the stalking and feigning and leaping, is not what we call Work, but what we call Fun. The only beings who work are the inmates of Gulag's islands, the zeks.

The zek's ancestors did less work than a corporation owner. They didn't know what work was. They lived in a condition J.J. Rousseau called "the state of nature." Rousseau's term should be brought back into common use. It grates on the nerves of those who, in R. Vaneigem's words, carry cadavers in their mouths. It makes the armor visible. Say "the state of nature" and you'll see the cadavers peer out.

Insist that "freedom" and "the state of nature" are synonyms, and the cadavers will try to bite you. The tame, the domesticated, try to monopolize the word freedom; they'd like to apply it to their own condition. They apply the word "wild" to the free. But it is another public secret that the tame, the domesticated, occasionally become wild but are never free so long as they remain in their pens.

Even the common dictionary keeps this secret only half hidden. It begins by saying that free means citizen! But then it says, "Free: a) not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being; b) determined by the choice of actor or by his wishes..."

The secret is out. Birds are free until people cage them. The Biosphere, Mother Earth herself, is free when she moistens herself, when she sprawls in the sun and lets her skin erupt with varicolored hair teeming with crawlers and fliers. She is not determined by anything beyond her own nature or being until another sphere of equal magnitude crashes into her, or until a cadaverous beast cuts into her skin and rends her bowels.

Trees, fish and insects are free as they grow from seed to maturity, each realizing its own potential, its wish--until the insect's freedom is curtailed by the bird's. The eaten insect has made a gift of its freedom to the bird's freedom. The bird, in its turn, drops and manures the seed of the insect's favorite plant, enhancing the freedom of the insect's heirs.

The state of nature is a community of freedoms.

Such was the environment of the first human communities, and such it remained for thousands of generations.

Modern anthropologists who carry Gulag in their brains reduce such human communities to the motions that look most like work, and give the name Gatherers to people who pick and sometimes store their favorite foods. A bank clerk would call such communities Savings Banks!


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut none of them ever worked. And everyone knows it. The armored Christians who later
“discovered” these communities knew that these people did no work, and this knowledge
grated on Christian nerves, it rankled, it caused cadavers to peep out. The Christians spoke of
women who did “lurid dances” in their fields instead of confining themselves to chores; they
said hunters did a lot of devilish “hocus pocus” before actually drawing the bowstring.

These Christians, early time-and-motion engineers, couldn’t tell when play ended and work
began. Long familiar with the chores of zeks, the Christians were repelled by the lurid and
devilish heathen who pretended that the Curse of Labor had not fallen on them. The
Christians put a quick end to the “hocus pocus” and the dances, and saw to it that none could
fail to distinguish work from play.

Our ancestors I’ll borrow Turner’s term and call them the Possessed had more important
things to do than to struggle to survive.


But nothing can be done now. We are dependent on technology to survive. The oceans are running out of fish and we must keep throwing artificial fertilizers into the soil else there is no food. Soils are depleted, eroded. Dead zones and plastic zones in all the oceans. Must follow the path to "Soylent Green". Look I write here. Many people know stuff like this and would want a different way of life. How many must want that before it happens on it's own ? I want it but due to "economic reasons" I can do nothing but write here...
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: The Lakota way of life

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 07 May 2009, 08:45:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'M')any people know stuff like this and would want a different way of life. How many must want that before it happens on it's own ? I want it but due to "economic reasons" I can do nothing but write here...



I recommend "Beyond Civilization" by Daniel Quinn, which suggests some ideas for moving toward a different way of life.
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