[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '
')
How much clank potential do you give Greenspan for his post-Iraq synopsis, rocc? "Of course it was about oil! You think I should have said so at the time, eh? Fark You!"

Time to test that proffanity filter. ****.

[mystiek]

Cspan had energy testimony before some senators, one of which was George Soros addressing the concept of "peak oil".

[Tanada]

Recent archeological research indicates Professor Diamond was probably wrong about the demise of the Greenland Norse. New studies indicate both from the excavations on Greenland itself and historical records in Iceland that rather than suddenly dieing off the Greenlanders had a much more orderly end. The excavations show that the Greenlanders did transition to an Inuit like diet of fish and seal after 1350. By the time the last of them lived in the Eastern settlement their diet was more than 80% sea food, both fish and seal making up the bulk with walrus and other marine species also part of the diet. It now appears from the records recovered in Iceland that many of the younger generation of Greenlanders in the 1400's did move, however they moved to Iceland, not North America. The older members of the population who remained behind continued to be buried in an orderly fashion until they died out. There was no massacre, no slaughter by enemies leaving unburied remains scattered about. Despite the oral histories there is no evidence that the settlements were burned down, they simply collapsed over time as they were deserted and left untended. The last dates of Norse occupation are still tentative, but the new evidence indicates they left Greenland not more than 60 years before Columbus made his voyages. Who knows, if some intrepid explorer had resumed trade with them before the last of the young moved away they might have continued on into modern times.

The main motivation for moving back to Iceland appears to be lack of opportunity to advance in Greenland society coupled with a growing shortage of timber and iron for making tools. Surviving tools found in the excavations were made of bone in place of wood, but a lack of iron was not as easily substituted for.

So despite what Professor Diamond concluded the Greenlanders did adapt to a changing climate, both in their diet and in the products they made use of in the new climate. However once trade withered away in the 1400's they were faced with a tough choice, give up Iron and European style ranch farming entirely, or move back to Europe. Enough of them chose to leave that the population went into decline and slowly faded away, at least that is what recent researchers have concluded. The famous couple from the 'last written record of Greenland' who were married 14SEP1408 turn out to have moved to Iceland, where written records were made of their marriage at the request of the church authorities there.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')An Orderly Abandonment

In the final phase, it was young people of child-bearing age in particular who saw no future for themselves on the island. The excavators found hardly any skeletons of young women on a cemetery from the late period.

"The situation was presumably similar to the way it is today, when young Greeks and Spaniards are leaving their countries to seek greener pastures in areas that are more promising economically," Lynnerup says. "It's always the young and the strong who go, leaving the old behind."

In addition, there was a rural exodus in their Scandinavian countries at the time, and the population in the more remote regions of Iceland, Norway and Denmark was thinning out. This, in turn, freed up farms and estates for returnees from Greenland.

However, the Greenlanders didn't leave their houses in a precipitous fashion. Aside from a gold signet ring in the grave of a bishop, valuable items, such as silver and gold crucifixes, have not been discovered anywhere on the island. The archeologists interpret this as a sign that the departure from the colony proceeded in an orderly manner, and that the residents took any valuable objects along. "If they had died out as a result of diseases or natural disasters, we would certainly have found such precious items long ago," says Lynnerup.

The couple that was married in the church on Hvalsey Fjord also left the island shortly after their wedding. In Iceland, the couple had to provide the local bishop with written proof that they had entered into a bond for life under a sod roof according to the rules of the mother church. Their reports are the last documents describing the lives of the Nordic settlers in Greenland.

[Tuike]

I just finished reading Finnish translation of Jared Diamond's Upheaval (2019).

I didn't realize American's polarization was so bad. Jared tells Americans commonly break ties with their relatives or friends if they have incorrect political opinion or if they share wrong article on Facebook. Local media does say in headline level about polarization, but doesn't dig any deeper.

In chapter 11, Jared sums things about ongoing and future crises, like climate change and peak oil. Jared says, while there are alot of unextracted oil, low hanging fruit has been already picked. This chapter is about 30 pages long.

Nice book. My recommendations.

[Newfie]

Thanks, I had not realized he had another book out.

I have found that at times Diamond is wrong, makes erroneous claims. The most egregious I am aware of are his claims that Nordic Greenlanders did not eat fish. (Found in Collapse). I talked to folks who did the dig in Newfoundland and they claim their site was full of fish bones and it was evident the Greenlanders ate mostly fish.

That aside I have read 3 previous books and found then very informative. Some pieces I have been able to check upon were quite accurate. I am not above quoting Diamond as a source.

I will get this book and read it.

[dissident]

The no fish claim is bizarre. Even under some warming period, the landscape of the Newfoundland and Greenland is hardly rich in food. The Viking name given to their new world colony, Vineland, is ironic and is based on this fact. People forget that back in that period there ware way more fish that were way more easier to catch than today. The Portuguese describe their ships sitting in a mass of Cod in the Grand Banks. No way one would see such a sight today.

[Newfie]

It did stick out like a sore thumb.

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tuik', 'I') didn't realize American's polarization was so bad. Jared tells Americans commonly break ties with their relatives or friends if they have incorrect political opinion or if they share wrong article on Facebook. Local media does say in headline level about polarization, but doesn't dig any deeper.

[Newfie]

I have never heard a discussion of Greenlander boat maintenance/replacement. Leif went to Newfoundland in his Dad’s boat. There was no suitable lumber in Greenland or Iceland for boat building. Repair was tough enough. As mentioned above iron was hard to find and they found a forge in Newfoundland.

They were very limited in travel because of the boat issue. With no new boats coming into the population they would have had to cherish and pamper the ones they had.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I') have never heard a discussion of Greenlander boat maintenance/replacement. Leif went to Newfoundland in his Dad’s boat. There was no suitable lumber in Greenland or Iceland for boat building. Repair was tough enough. As mentioned above iron was hard to find and they found a forge in Newfoundland.

They were very limited in travel because of the boat issue. With no new boats coming into the population they would have had to cherish and pamper the ones they had.

[Newfie]

Yeah, it is a fascinating subject all around. And they night have moved on further had they the ships to so. As I understand it the Greenlanders were totally dependent upon Europeans coming to them, they had no ability to i initiate their own trading voyages, at least in the latter periods of the colony.

Then there is the whole bit about the missing / abandoned settlement; the West group.

Anyway, just saying that it would he interesting t read an analysis of their seafaring capabilities as the colony aged.

[mustang19]

The smallpox crap is fake. There's no gene for it, furthermore Europeans died of salmonella so it doesn't work at all.

Greenland died of smallpox so claiming there was a resistance to it is silly.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'T')he smallpox crap is fake. There's no gene for it, furthermore Europeans died of salmonella so it doesn't work at all.

Greenland died of smallpox so claiming there was a resistance to it is silly.