[mkwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'C')redit expansion (loaning unbacked paper) artificially increases the supply of credit, lowers it's price, and thereby increases demand. --snip-- I doubt those on the Federal Reserve career track are likely to espouse a free market in money.

[mkwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')redit expansion (loaning unbacked paper)

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'E')ven if you were given a magic wish and could create your own perfect Utopian government (whatever that may be)

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')(from the daily reckoning)

One of the most interesting and informative books we have come across lately is one from Barry Dyke called the “Pirates of Manhattan.” The book shows how Wall Street insiders separate the masses from their money.

The most obvious way, of course, is by paying themselves a lot of shareholders’ money and calling it “compensation.” For example, at one point, the book shows that a Mr. E. Stanley O’Neil was paid a total of $38,121,766 from Merrill Lynch in 2005. What was he doing that justified that kind of money? Well, as subsequent events would show, he was doing nothing to add shareholder value. Instead, he guided the great ship right into an iceberg.

So far, the losses reported on Wall Street are staggering. But rumors of much larger losses are being whispered...and at least one source we read suggested that the firms may be bankrupt...crushed by total system-wide losses of more than $3 trillion.

But don’t worry about Mr. E. Stanley O’Neil. He was the first one in the lifeboat when the ship began taking on water. And what a luxury lifeboat it was! His severance was reportedly worth about $250 million...not bad for a man who had just wrecked one of the greatest financial firms of all time.

[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's called democracy.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', 'E')xcellent. We can all get together and vote on what type of car we are all going to drive. We can even vote on what food will be served on Fridays! This will be fun; we the majority can even vote to make Concerned drink hemlock! Life is great under a democracy, all those pesky individual rights and liberties just get in the way of good majoritarian tyranny. [/sarcasm]

[MrBill]

I feel sorry for any totalitarian society in which like-minded individuals like Concerned impose their will on others.... let's punish anyone successful! I guess he would feel perfectly happy in Zimbabwe? ; - )

[LoneSnark]

Ahh, but Concerned, murdering or stealing from me would be a violation of my individual rights and liberties and the rest of society should punish them accordingly, nice try though.

Suicide-related text deleted. Personally, I would run for it, as it would be immoral for me to enable someone else (even a lot of someone elses) to violate my rights.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', 'A')hh, but Concerned, murdering or stealing from me would be a violation of my individual rights and liberties and the rest of society should punish them accordingly, nice try though. --snip-- Personally, I would run for it, as it would be immoral for me to enable someone else (even a lot of someone elses) to violate my rights.

[mattduke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'L')ook Im sorry you can't go around freely stealing, embezzling, breaking into houses, the odd rape here or there but you know just as there are limits to growth there has to be limits to freedom. --snip-- I feel sorry that in your society individual freedoms to do whatever ape like thought pops into your head is more important than having a fairer, safer more harmonious community.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'T')hey can just as easily be re-united and they snake oil salesman can be shot.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', 'A')hh, but Concerned, murdering or stealing from me would be a violation of my individual rights and liberties --snip-- Personally, I would run for it, as it would be immoral for me to enable someone else (even a lot of someone elses) to violate my rights.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')magine this scenario. Somebody bought a home for $400,000 with 0% downpayment and the home drops to $300,000.--snip-- You're the president of the USA what do you do?

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I') thought they were worthless fiat currency? Why would it matter if I had $1000 or $10 million? They are worthless, right? ; - ))

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'A')llow the person to go bankrupt and that individual not allow to enter into loan contracts for the next five years. The institution that created that irresponsible debt must write it off. Next question.

[MrBill]

You're right, Cube. In some countries like Russia where they did not have bankruptcy laws and the ability to enforce pledges over collateral in the case of default until very recently it was basically impossible to borrow money without putting down 50% plus.

Even with a 10% downpayment and 6% interest rates, like say in the 60s, would have simply disqualified many homeowners who would have had to rent longer and save longer in order to get into their first home at the bottom of the housing ladder instead of into a McMansion.

I am fine with that. There would not have been as much housing inflation as a result of easy credit. But I can imagine the hew and cry from would be homeowners as larger downpayments and higher real interest rates would naturally benefit the rich who would own the apartment buildings and be renting to the lower middle classes.

I think we should all pay cash before we buy something on credit, but if it were public policy then the social advocates would decry it as an assault on the working class. Sometimes you cannot win for losing!

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'B')TW I'm perfectly fine with this. This is the way it SHOULD be honestly. A lot of liberals would say my gosh that is horrible most people would not be able to "afford" home ownership with a 50% down payment requirement. My answer to society would be if you can't afford it then maybe you don't deserve it! Don't you agree?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '[')I definately agree with increased downpayments.

[venky]

I still think the greatest threat to capitalism still comes from infinite growth and resource depletion. Unless it can be reconciled with a steady state economy; it will fail in the end, that is a certainty.

IMO we have enough energy and resources to keep the current paradigm humming along till about 2030 abouts; after that unless human society looks drastically different and consumes far lower energy. This change might happen gradually over the next 2 decades for all I know. After that, with the decline in GDP and economic depression that is sure to happen, the new paradigms will either be 'protect the wealthy aka fascism' or 'spread the wealth aka communism'.

This humorous debate of capitalism/socialism will be moot.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'N')o offense but you're not really saying much there. Considering people were getting 0% down payment loans how hard can it be to agree with me that we should expect a little more than 0%? LMAO