hmm, people seem to be mis-interpretting the article.
What they are building is an electric power generator that takes coal, extracts the Hydrogen, then runs it through a fuel cell to produce electricity.
its an interesting idea because a fuel cell is far more efficient than burning the coal for a steam turbine generator
however there are lots of stages to this process so scalability and over all efficiency may be issues (not to mention expense and durability). There's also a question of what do they do with all the Carbon Dioxide (not to mention the sulphur an other crap in coal)
I think they'll have lots of kinks to work out before it can be workable, but sounds better than creating gasoline from coal, or burning coal outright
(btw, before you flame me, I don't think this will save us but could be another landing cussion)
PeakOil is You
THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)
by mjpete » Thu 12 May 2005, 13:39:47
pstarr wrote
"Can we say "misallocation of bright minds?""
Apparently pstarr is not one of those "bright minds."
Increasing the efficiency and decreasing the pollution from coal to electricity production is a good place to be putting some of our efforts into. Anything that helps keep the lights on for a bit longer into the future is a good thing. Is it the magic bullet that solves all the energy problems no, but then no currently viable technology is. The only way we cushion the landing that is coming up is with new technologies, conservation and lifestyle changes.
"Can we say "misallocation of bright minds?""
Apparently pstarr is not one of those "bright minds."
Increasing the efficiency and decreasing the pollution from coal to electricity production is a good place to be putting some of our efforts into. Anything that helps keep the lights on for a bit longer into the future is a good thing. Is it the magic bullet that solves all the energy problems no, but then no currently viable technology is. The only way we cushion the landing that is coming up is with new technologies, conservation and lifestyle changes.
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Saved: British hydrogen Eco-car
by KevO » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 17:54:40
Eco-car more efficient than light bulb
(CNN) -- An eco-car that can travel the world using a fraction of the electricity it takes to power a light bulb, has been unveiled by its British creators.
According to the British gas firm BOC, its hydrogen-powered BOC Ech2o needs just 25 Watts -- the equivalent of less than two gallons of petrol -- to complete the 25,000-mile global trip, while emitting nothing more hazardous than water.
"The lessons from this and other projects will show that hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles could be a practical, attractive and a viable economic alternative to diesel or petrol fuelled vehicles." http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/
(CNN) -- An eco-car that can travel the world using a fraction of the electricity it takes to power a light bulb, has been unveiled by its British creators.
According to the British gas firm BOC, its hydrogen-powered BOC Ech2o needs just 25 Watts -- the equivalent of less than two gallons of petrol -- to complete the 25,000-mile global trip, while emitting nothing more hazardous than water.
"The lessons from this and other projects will show that hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles could be a practical, attractive and a viable economic alternative to diesel or petrol fuelled vehicles." http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/
Last edited by KevO on Tue 05 Jul 2005, 03:47:20, edited 1 time in total.
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by Sys1 » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 18:02:26
Neopo : Because he didn't post the whole story :
http://www.sustain-online.org/plugins/D ... Id=MTU3MTI
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut with a top speed of 30mph, the journey would take more than a month to complete, even if the car was driven flat out with no pit-stops.
http://www.sustain-online.org/plugins/D ... Id=MTU3MTI
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut with a top speed of 30mph, the journey would take more than a month to complete, even if the car was driven flat out with no pit-stops.
Another site where you can see a photo of the "car" :
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/
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by Wildwell » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 18:11:35
LOL You can do an awful lot with some very careful, very lightweight design. Trouble is, I suspect this car would be so small and light it's impractical and it would probably only carry one person - we can see what the top speed is. The good news is, things can be an awful lot more efficient yet. Saved is probably a bit strong, but another point for the optimists certainly.
If you read the article, it's a go-kart for one person and a purely theoretical service life and fuel economy, you can probably pick the thing up, not your regular SUV. In real life you have to build a certain amount of crash-worthiness in, cost effectiveness, practicality and longevity as well as performance. A science project is an awful lot different from a commercial application. You could probably build a decent hydrogen powered car for practical purposes that will do 200-250 miles per gallon equivalent with regen. Electric motors are a lot more efficient than ICEs for a start. Then you just have the laws of physics to deal with.
If you read the article, it's a go-kart for one person and a purely theoretical service life and fuel economy, you can probably pick the thing up, not your regular SUV. In real life you have to build a certain amount of crash-worthiness in, cost effectiveness, practicality and longevity as well as performance. A science project is an awful lot different from a commercial application. You could probably build a decent hydrogen powered car for practical purposes that will do 200-250 miles per gallon equivalent with regen. Electric motors are a lot more efficient than ICEs for a start. Then you just have the laws of physics to deal with.
Last edited by Wildwell on Mon 04 Jul 2005, 18:49:44, edited 1 time in total.
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by Sgs-Cruz » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 18:48:09
God I hate popular reporting of science stuff.
25 watts, the equivalent of less than two gallons of petrol... really? Not if I burn the 2 gal. over a period of 100 years! Stupid media mixing up power & energy again... (grumble)
25 watts, the equivalent of less than two gallons of petrol... really? Not if I burn the 2 gal. over a period of 100 years! Stupid media mixing up power & energy again... (grumble)
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by MicroHydro » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 18:54:09
Complete nonsense. A recumbent bicycle with an ultralight aerodynamic fairing powered by an athlete producing 250 watts (ten times the power!) will average less than 30mph during a day of travel in the real world with hills and wind. This is a fraud, hoax, or scam, period.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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by I_Like_Plants » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 19:55:55
Nah it could be built, but it would be the spaciest, most impractical thing you've ever seen
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by NeoPeasant » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 20:30:48
I think in 20 years those of us still living will be so preoccupied with keeping our families from freezing, starving, or dying from lack of rudimentary health care that we will barely notice the demise of personal motoring.
We will not all trade in our gasoline cars for cars based on some other technology. Even if we had a practical alternative personal vehicle energy source (which we don't) we will not have the energy to mine the ever scarcer raw materials and build vehicles out of them. We will not have the energy to build whatever massive production and distribution infrastructure this new energy source will require. We are in the twilight of the car age.
It's time to stop fantasizing about what you're going to drive and start planning how to keep your family warm, dry, clean and fed when things start getting difficult.
We will not all trade in our gasoline cars for cars based on some other technology. Even if we had a practical alternative personal vehicle energy source (which we don't) we will not have the energy to mine the ever scarcer raw materials and build vehicles out of them. We will not have the energy to build whatever massive production and distribution infrastructure this new energy source will require. We are in the twilight of the car age.
It's time to stop fantasizing about what you're going to drive and start planning how to keep your family warm, dry, clean and fed when things start getting difficult.
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by Ludi » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 20:39:57
I'm telling you, goat carts are the vehicle of the future! Goats are intelligent, trainable, and good at turning inedible plant material into meat and milk.
Go Goat!
Link to giant forum destroying goat pic
Go Goat!
Link to giant forum destroying goat pic
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by shortonoil » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 20:58:30
.
How are you going to keep Nellie out of your garden. It takes a pen that can hold water to hold a goat!
.
How are you going to keep Nellie out of your garden. It takes a pen that can hold water to hold a goat!
.
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by BabyPeanut » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 22:18:08
And it's perfect if you are a 13-year-old athlete and never transport any groceries, etc.
[url=http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/]
Kart racer Jack Dex, 13, will drive the Ech2o prototype at this week's Shell Eco Marathon.[/url]
[url=http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/]
Kart racer Jack Dex, 13, will drive the Ech2o prototype at this week's Shell Eco Marathon.[/url]
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by KevO » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 03:46:50
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'C')omplete nonsense. This is a fraud, hoax, or scam, period.
No. It's genuine.
I didn't realise that I never posted the original link in my initial post - sorry
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/
But it's an on-going thing in the UK. The record is currently 10,000 miles per gallon.
Now let's get real.
This a is a kid driving a one seater car that will do more than the current record of 10,000 miles per gallon. Do people really, really think that car companies couldn't come up with something like Europe's million selling smart car that seats two that could do say 700 to 1000 pg and do 50mph?
It's doable people, you have the proof, we have the technology but sadly fuck all time.
It's never too late until you're a pumpkin
and we are all in pumpkin world
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by KevO » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 03:57:50
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sys1', 'B')ut with a top speed of 30mph, the journey would take more than a month to complete, even if the car was driven flat out with no pit-stops.
Hey, when goverments start to hit back at oil shortages they will drop the speed limits.
In the UK we now have tens of thousands of 20mph zones. These are trials currently being done outside schools on busy highways but will likely be extended to all roads within towns and cities.
Also the UK can expect it's top motorway speed limit to go from 70 to 60 if not 50 within a couple of years.
I expect the US will revert back to 55 and probably 50 with a 20 max within towns etc.
Be realistic, we won't just stop, we'll slow first. The US 55 was brought in as a response to the 70's oil crisis.
So a 1000 mpg, 50mph, two seater smart car may well cut it
Smart website here
http://www.smart.com/smart_uk/smart_uk_start.html
and
link
Those Yanks that have passports and have been to Europe would have seen these cars - very trendy, very cool, very hip, very you!
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by Aaron » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 08:51:16
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.
Hazel Henderson
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Re: Saved
by MacG » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 09:07:41
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', ' ')"The lessons from this and other projects will show that hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles could be a practical, attractive and a viable economic alternative to diesel or petrol fuelled vehicles."
Yea. Sure. This is the same stuff as Amory Lovins is pushing nowdays. Utterly useless alltogether!
Imagine building a tractor using these techniques? Imagine the plough it can carry? Or imagine a cargo ship. Or a train or an excavator. An ultralight excavator running on fuel cells would dig ultrashallow holes and move ultralight loads of dirt.
Personal transportation is our smallest problem! People have relocalized on rather grand scales previously and can do it again. It is the mining, moving, manufacturing and agriculture which is the scary stuff.
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