[PhilBiker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')wo words: McDonald's Coffee

[Doly]

I think a lot of people, including the poster that started this thread, is not aware of the realities of life. Irrespective of the environment you were brought up in, the realities are:

1) You do not have a right to life. The only thing that is guaranteed is that you will die one day. Just because a particular cause of death was uncommon or forbidden in the past, it doesn't mean that it won't happen to you.

2) You do not have a right to freedom, except in the most basic sense that you take your own decisions. You have no control over the coercion circumstances or other people can put on you. Again, just because in the past you weren't too coerced, it doesn't mean you won't be in the future.

3) You do not have a right to security. The world is inherently insecure. You and your close ones can try your best to be safe, but you can never avoid the unforeseen.

4) You do not have a right to be free from pain. Pain is wired into your nervous system, and it will happen every time you suffer damage. And you will suffer damage.

5) You do not have a right to be treated the same as anybody else. Everybody is different, and people take that into account when dealing with you. Even the law may make differences, no matter their theoretical impartiality.

6) You do not have a right to privacy, dignity or freedom from interference in your own business from other people. They will interfere whenever they feel like it, for whatever reasons they consider valid. You can only decide what you want to tell to which people.

7) You do not have a right to have a family. You can try to start one or join one if you don't have your own family, but there is no guarantee of success.

You do not have a right to property. There may be a number of objects that you feel particularly attached to, but there is no guarantee that they will always be where you last left them. Similarly, you do not have a right of ownership for whatever artistic, scientific or literary creations you do. They will be misappropiated and misused by other people whenever they feel like it.

9) You do not have a right to authority or any participation in authority. You can try to, but there is no guarantee that anybody will comply with your orders.

10) You do not have a right to work, no matter how well qualified you are for a particular job. It all depends whether other people are willing to pay you to do your job or not, and that isn't under your control.

11) You do not have a right to have money, not even as little money as needed for what you consider a decent life. You have no control over economy.

12) You do not have a right to leisure. You may be forced to work far more than you would like by circumstances or other people.

13) You do not have a right to what you consider adequate standards of living. This includes food, clothes, housing and medical care. All those things depend on circumstances and people beyond your control.

14) You do not have a right to education, except whatever you can teach yourself. You can't expect people to tell you stuff you will find massively useful in the future. Sometimes it will happen, sometimes it won't.

15) You do not have a right to understanding, friendship or even tolerance. People will treat you in whatever way they feel like. You can behave in a friendly and understanding way towards others, but it won't guarantee the same attitude from them.

You may have the impression that all these rights are part of the human rights, but this only means that a number of governments have promised to respect them, with a number of limitations. There is no guarantee that they will keep respecting them in the future, or that you will not be considered an exception.

[heyhoser]

Damn fine post, k_semler. I'd vote for him.

[RockHind]

All I want is a working approximation of the truth, and a chance to swing a sword in my chosen direction.

[UIUCstudent01]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RockHind', 'A')ll I want is a working approximation of the truth, and a chance to swing a sword in my chosen direction.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Jesus, Doly 'you aint got no freakin's rights, period.' Welcome to the jungle!

[EdF]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', '.')..Just don't cram it down my throat...

[Tyler_JC]

I ask nothing from my fellow man other than to be left alone to flourish or flounder. If I flourish, so be it, don’t come knocking on my door asking for a handout. If I flounder, so be it, I don’t expect you to do give me a handout either.

What do you dislike about the previous statement? I am not entitled to anything you have and you are not entitled to anything I have. That’s the kind of stuff the United States was based on. Some may try to create a welfare nanny state, but that was not the intention of Thomas Jefferson or John Adams.

Yes, life is tough. Some people will have more than other people. Well guess what, learn to deal with it. Or maybe you could try a different occupation that will increase your potential earnings. Or maybe you could try starting a business to increase your wealth. Or maybe you simply lack the skills that society currently demands and thus have a lower "value" according to the market.

I'm sure you are a nice human being, but you will run into a very unhappy human being if you think that you are entitled to anything other than what you create.

[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'I') think a lot of people, including the poster that started this thread, is not aware of the realities of life. Irrespective of the environment you were brought up in, the realities are:

(...)
(long list deleted)

[Grimnir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', 'T')he following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Kaye
from GA. This guy should run for President one day...

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')Or maybe you simply lack the skills that society currently demands and thus have a lower "value" according to the market.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')Or maybe you simply lack the skills that society currently demands and thus have a lower "value" according to the market.

[kevincarter]

Something that may or may not affect society after PO is the way in which people sees their own rights. To me there is a majority that has the following rights in mind; I’m not saying that they are careless about other rights or that they don’t have those rights, but that they consider the following as “the most important rights”:

- The right to watch TV.
- The right to buy useless things.
- The right to eat junk food, including transgenic food and to grow as fat as one wants.
- The right to use as much energy as one needs for heat, cold, transportation or others.
- The right to delegate one’s children education of all values, including moral and universal values, into the school system.
- The right to refuse taking care of one’s mother and father when they are very old.
- The right to refuse to understand any logical argument.
- The right to refuse to listen.
- The right to spend 95% of the time sitting down or laying down.
- The right of being the center of the universe.
- The right to have a boring job in which the only requisite is obedience.
- The right to never question anything.
- The right to only talk about what one saw on TV.
- The right to directly or indirectly teach all those rights to their children and grandchildren.

[ashurbanipal]

I think perhaps the most critical of such "rights" in modern society is the right to refuse to think logically. Similar to one you pointed out, but I think a lot of malevolence flows from that.

[Omnitir]

This is very interesting. I’m studying a university subject at the moment on human rights, which covers basic human rights such as what the UN concerns itself with. We are encouraged to investigate what constitutes a human right and look at examples of violations of human rights (for example, looking at the coalition of the willing as possibly violating human rights). But with my understanding of peak oil and our possible dark future, I’m often wondering if perhaps the greatest violation of human rights is actually our indulgent life style.

By living the “American dream” across the western world and being so wasteful in our consumption, perhaps we will be the ones responsible for the most disastrous violations of human rights? If the worst-case peak oil scenarios come to be and billions of people suffer and die, then couldn’t we say that these violations of the most essential human rights (the right to live) were caused by us consumers? When we buy those easy meals wrapped in lots of plastic and transported thousands of miles, or those large cars that waste far more energy then is really necessary, could we be the worst violators of human rights in history?

Even Hitler didn’t condemn billions of people to starvation and death, but that’s exactly what we could be doing merely by living our lives the way we are told is normal.

Fortunately I don’t believe that civilisation is coming to an end because of peak oil, but if it does, history will probably come to regard us –consumers of developed nations- as the worst offenders of human rights ever.

[oilfreeandhappy]

I don't remember which magazine I found this in, but it was a tear-out page, and they encouraged sharing it --->

A BILL OF RIGHTS FOR THE GENERATIONS!

WE, THE PEOPLE of the future, like the twenty thousand generations who came before us, have the right to breathe air that smells sweet, to drink water that runs pure and free, to swim in waters that teem with life, and to grow our food in rich, living earth.

We have the right to inherit a world unsullied by toxic chemicals, nuclear waste, or genetic pollution. We have the right to walk in untamed nature and to feel the awe that comes when we suddenly lock eyes with a wild beast.

We beseech you, the people of today: do not leave your dirty messes for us to clean up; do not take technological risks, however small, that may backfire catastrophically in times to come. Just as we respectfully ask that you not burden us with your deferred debts and depleted pension plans, we also claim our right to a share of the planet's ecological wealth. Please don't use it all up.

We, in turn, promise to do the same. We grant these same rights and privileges to the generations who will live after us; we do so in the sacred hope that the human spirit will live forever.

A curse on any generation who ignores this plea.

[kevincarter]

I wrote a list of rights people find more interesting

- The right to watch TV.
- The right to buy useless things.
- The right to eat junk food, including transgenic food and to grow as fat as one wants or cans.
- The right to use as much energy as one needs for heat, cold, transportation or others.
- The right to delegate one’s children education of all values, including moral and universal values, into the school system.
- The right to refuse taking care of one’s mother and father when they are very old.
- The right to refuse to understand any logical argument.
- The right to refuse to listen.
- The right to spend 95% of the time sitting down or laying down.
- The right of being the center of the universe.
- The right to have a boring job in which the only requisite is obedience.
- The right to never question anything.
- The right to only talk about what one saw on TV.
- The right to directly or indirectly teach all those rights to their children and grandchildren.

thread

[backstop]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oilfreeandhappy', 'I') don't remember which magazine I found this in, but it was a tear-out page, and they encouraged sharing it --->
A BILL OF RIGHTS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS
WE, THE PEOPLE of the future, like the twenty thousand generations who came before us, have the right to breathe air that smells sweet, to drink water that runs pure and free, to swim in waters that teem with life, and to grow our food in rich, living earth.
We have the right to inherit a world unsullied by toxic chemicals, nuclear waste, or genetic pollution. We have the right to walk in untamed nature and to feel the awe that comes when we suddenly lock eyes with a wild beast.
We beseech you, the people of today: do not leave your dirty messes for us to clean up; do not take technological risks, however small, that may backfire catastrophically in times to come. Just as we respectfully ask that you not burden us with your deferred debts and depleted pension plans, we also claim our right to a share of the planet's ecological wealth. Please don't use it all up.
We, in turn, promise to do the same. We grant these same rights and privileges to the generations who will live after us; we do so in the sacred hope that the human spirit will live forever.
A curse on any generation who ignores this plea.

[oilfreeandhappy]

Backstop,
I like your title better too!

[Denny]

When push come to shove do you really have the rights stated in the "Bill of Rights" or "Charter of Freedoms" or whatever else your country may choose to call it?

I was just watching a World War II documentary, and though it took place in Canada, the identical thing happened in the States. I am talking of the internment of those of Japanese ancestry.

Think about it, due to your ethnicity, you could be moved forcefully to the hinterland, your wife and kids moved into crappy tar paper shacks, while you were forced to work in mines or logging camps for peanuts while all your family and business assets were taken. The government would later sell them at auction and pocket the proceeds. (That happened in Canada, not sure about the U.S.)

So, just because you were of Japanese ethnicity, even if a Canadian citizen, the government you supported by taxes all those years could become your enemy, detain you, separate you from your family and steal from you. I understand in the U.S. this was challenged to the U.S. Supreme Court and was found permissible due to the national emergency. Just think about all the rights those actions violated! If the Constitution is so flexible that it contains exceptions for emergency, that what power does it really have? Despots have always used "emergency" as an excuse to condone whatever evils their hearts desired.

Earlier, in 1934, the U.S. government confiscated all the gold people had, compensating them at the rate of about $20 per ounce, but the next week repricing gold to $35, and therefore reaped an enormous windfall, just by fiat. I guess that was approved by the Supreme Court too. But, we all know it contradicts the right to private possession. Last time I looked, gold is not poisonous, it does not kill. What right did the U.S. government have to demand its citizens sell their gold to the government at any price, let alone a discount?

So, for all of us who are seeking that special place to survive a national emrgency, who is to say that the govenerment will not take it? They may say its for the national good, for a military camp or whatever, and that just may be subterfuge for them to protect a selected elite, and leave you to forage for yourself, and maybe succumb to shortages and societal chaos.