[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'I')n a circular economy, there will be no consumption or wastage. That is how it is defined (see above quotes and links). "Manufacturers or retailers retain ownership of their products". In the case of coffee cups, there will be no waste - all components are recycled.

It looks like we will soon transition to a new economy anyway. We have no choice.

[Graeme]

Yes there is. I've just described it to you. The coffee cups are not consumed - they are owned by the retailer, recycled and reused. The same goes with other resources. All our problems have the potential of being solved. Unfortunately, it will take decades for our society to choose the correct path. Global population is going to decline by mid-century so, with CE and no consumption, overshoot could be solved too.

[rdberg1957]

Laissez Faire Capitalism has never been fully tried because it only works in theory, not in practice. As we approach Laissez Faire--minimal regulation, the law of the jungle is in play. Capitalists don't like capitalism for anyone else but themselves. As soon as owners get enough power, they work mightily to stifle and sabotage competition, disempower communities, and hoard wealth. The movement toward monopoly is inexhorable. The reason we never have tried a true laissez faire is because when we approach a deregulated society, the majority of the society is very disenchanted with the results. Only a few are pleased.

[Oneaboveall]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rdberg1957', 'L')aissez Faire Capitalism has never been fully tried because it only works in theory, not in practice. As we approach Laissez Faire--minimal regulation, the law of the jungle is in play. Capitalists don't like capitalism for anyone else but themselves. As soon as owners get enough power, they work mightily to stifle and sabotage competition, disempower communities, and hoard wealth. The movement toward monopoly is inexhorable. The reason we never have tried a true laissez faire is because when we approach a deregulated society, the majority of the society is very disenchanted with the results. Only a few are pleased.

[kublikhan]

True Laissez Faire Capitalism would cannibalize itself.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]A Self-devouring Beast
There is a third function of the capitalist state seldom mentioned. It consists of preventing the capitalist system from devouring itself. Consider the core contradiction Karl Marx pointed to: the tendency toward overproduction and market crisis. An economy dedicated to speedups and wage cuts, to making workers produce more and more for less and less, is always in danger of a crash. To maximize profits, wages must be kept down. But someone has to buy the goods and services being produced. For that, wages must be kept up. There is a chronic tendency-as we are seeing today-toward overproduction of private sector goods and services and underconsumption of necessities by the working populace.

In addition, there is the frequently overlooked self-destruction created by the moneyed players themselves. If left completely unsupervised, the more active command component of the financial system begins to devour less organized sources of wealth.

Instead of trying to make money by the arduous task of producing and marketing goods and services, the marauders tap directly into the money streams of the economy itself. During the 1990s we witnessed the collapse of an entire economy in Argentina when unchecked free marketeers stripped enterprises, pocketed vast sums, and left the country's productive capacity in shambles. The Argentine state, gorged on a heavy diet of free-market ideology, faltered in its function of saving capitalism from the capitalists.

Some years later, in the United States, came the multi-billion-dollar plunder perpetrated by corporate conspirators at Enron, WorldCom, Harkin, Adelphia, and a dozen other major companies. Inside players like Ken Lay turned successful corporate enterprises into sheer wreckage, wiping out the jobs and life savings of thousands of employees in order to pocket billions.

These thieves were caught and convicted. Does that not show capitalism's self-correcting capacity? Not really. The prosecution of such malfeasance- in any case coming too late-was a product of democracy's accountability and transparency, not capitalism's. Of itself the free market is an amoral system, with no strictures save "caveat emptor."

Among the victims were other capitalists, small investors, and the many workers who lost billions of dollars in savings and pensions. Perhaps the premiere brigand was Bernard Madoff. Described as "a longstanding leader in the financial services industry," Madoff ran a fraudulent fund that raked in $50 billion from wealthy investors, paying them back "with money that wasn't there," as he himself put it. The plutocracy devours its own children.

In the midst of the meltdown, at an October 2008 congressional hearing, former chair of the Federal Reserve and orthodox free-market devotee Alan Greenspan confessed that he had been mistaken to expect moneyed interests--groaning under an immense accumulation of capital that needs to be invested somewhere--to suddenly exercise self-restraint.

The classic laissez-faire theory is even more preposterous than Greenspan made it. In fact, the theory claims that everyone should pursue their own selfish interests without restraint. This unbridled competition supposedly will produce maximum benefits for all because the free market is governed by a miraculously benign "invisible hand" that optimizes collective outputs. ("Greed is good.")

Capitalism breeds the venal perpetrators, and rewards the most unscrupulous among them. The crimes and crises are not irrational departures from a rational system, but the converse: they are the rational outcomes of a basically irrational and amoral system.

Worse still, the ensuing multi-billion dollar government bailouts are themselves being turned into an opportunity for pillage. Not only does the state fail to regulate, it becomes itself a source of plunder, pulling vast sums from the federal money machine, leaving the taxpayers to bleed.

In sum, free-market corporate capitalism is by its nature a disaster waiting to happen. Its essence is the transformation of living nature into mountains of commodities and commodities into heaps of dead capital. When left entirely to its own devices, capitalism foists its diseconomies and toxicity upon the general public and upon the natural environment--and eventually begins to devour itself.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rdberg1957', 'L')aissez Faire Capitalism has never been fully tried because it only works in theory, not in practice. As we approach Laissez Faire--minimal regulation, the law of the jungle is in play. Capitalists don't like capitalism for anyone else but themselves. As soon as owners get enough power, they work mightily to stifle and sabotage competition, disempower communities, and hoard wealth. The movement toward monopoly is inexhorable. The reason we never have tried a true laissez faire is because when we approach a deregulated society, the majority of the society is very disenchanted with the results. Only a few are pleased.

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the midst of the meltdown, at an October 2008 congressional hearing, former chair of the Federal Reserve and orthodox free-market devotee Alan Greenspan confessed that he had been mistaken to expect moneyed interests--groaning under an immense accumulation of capital that needs to be invested somewhere--to suddenly exercise self-restraint.

[SeaGypsy]

I think rdberg1957 has confused the word capitalism for the word banking. LF Banking is a disaster.

When I think of LF capitalism I am thinking from the opposite end, from that of ease of entry to capital to market by the minnows. The big end of town makes all the noise, the pollution, has it's hand on the throat of local politicians. It's ordinary people who might like to start a business who face the most impossible legislative hurdles- most of which are not about protecting neighborhoods or amenity but at keeping the business in control of the bankers and their favorites.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', 'B')ernie Madoff was able to fool so many people, because they somehow believed in government regulators so much, that they didn't take responsibility for they're own money. Why? because people do the same thing with money in United States banks, they trust the FDIC will bail them out. So if a bank fails, because people didn't think they had to hold the bank reponsible and stop them from giving bad loans, that's not a failure of capitalism, its government regulation that lulled people into a false sense of security. In true capitalism you had better not be fooled into that type of security or you'll pay!

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'Y')es there is. I've just described it to you. The coffee cups are not consumed - they are owned by the retailer, recycled and reused. The same goes with other resources. All our problems have the potential of being solved. Unfortunately, it will take decades for our society to choose the correct path. Global population is going to decline by mid-century so, with CE and no consumption, overshoot could be solved too.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rdberg1957', 'L')aissez Faire Capitalism has never been fully tried because it only works in theory, not in practice. As we approach Laissez Faire--minimal regulation, the law of the jungle is in play. Capitalists don't like capitalism for anyone else but themselves. As soon as owners get enough power, they work mightily to stifle and sabotage competition, disempower communities, and hoard wealth. The movement toward monopoly is inexhorable. The reason we never have tried a true laissez faire is because when we approach a deregulated society, the majority of the society is very disenchanted with the results. Only a few are pleased.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', '
')I picked this portion to show how the entire post is laughable. Alan Greenspan, the head of a government central bank that tries to use regulatory fiat to address unemployment and inflation is pointed to as a way to impeach capitalism? Really!

...

Heck I'll pick another, the tendency toward "overproduction and hyper-finanicial accumulation" was caused by the CENTRAL banks regulation of interest rates in the early 2000's in order to lessen the effects of a recession, that's on GOVERNMENT. That's not capitalism! Bernie Madoff was able to fool so many people, because they somehow believed in government regulators so much, that they didn't take responsibility for they're own money. Why? because people do the same thing with money in United States banks, they trust the FDIC will bail them out. So if a bank fails, because people didn't think they had to hold the bank reponsible and stop them from giving bad loans, that's not a failure of capitalism, its government regulation that lulled people into a false sense of security. In true capitalism you had better not be fooled into that type of security or you'll pay!

[wildbourgman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom what I know, the Fed isn't a central bank but a private consortium run by commercial banks

[wildbourgman]

[quote][/I see. So you think that what little oversight we had in place was ultimately at fault for the criminal frauds perpetrated against the American people? We should rip out all oversight and then investors would be forced to look after their own interests instead of being coddled by the likes of the SEC? Get rid of all oversight, all penalties for fraud? Isn't that a little like expecting minnows to fend off sharks? These are professional marauders preying on naive investors. 20-30 year industry veterans who do this as their job vs mom & pop investors who can't even read a 10-K? There's no way you can expect less fraud under such a scenario. The investors would be eaten alive by the Madoffs and Ken Lays of the world.quote]

Kublikhan, it took a while to get back to you, I've been busy trying to get some black gold out of the ground. No luck.

All I'm saying is that if people were not conditioned to think that government would bail out their poor judgement they would have better judgement. I know people that were involved in a Madoff type situation and they honestly thought the FDIC was going to make them whole, it didn't. There were laws that the fraudster broke but they were still left holding the bag. There's a reason that people from the great depression put money in coffee cans buried in the backyard, because they learned from the pain of failing banks. I think you can expect less fraud when people know that superman is not going to save them and they had better be aware. So in nature you never expect minnows to fend off sharks you expect them to stay in estuaries where the sharks don't swim!

[SeaGypsy]

Confounding logic.
When only the local police police the local police, what happens? Tyranny.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', 'S')o in nature you never expect minnows to fend off sharks you expect them to stay in estuaries where the sharks don't swim!

[Graeme]

Ralfy, Looks like we are going around in circles. Here's an example of where we are heading. . .

Self-sustaining buildings on the rise

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')rganic buildings that pulse, breathe and react are becoming a viable reality as engineers, scientists and architects look to the Holy Grail of eco-friendly design.

It's called "triple net zero", which means buildings and homes are self-contained, producing almost zero energy, zero emissions and zero waste.

They feature cladding called eSkin - modelled on human muscle cells that optimise heat and light - and living walls that automatically adjust temperature.

These sustainable self-contained buildings have cheaper upkeep and power costs, while acting as a shield from power outages and other side-effects of infrastructure and energy grid failure.

The green-building movement, known technically as the integrated whole building design process (IWBDP), aims to link waste treatment with water supply and energy generation in a closed circuit using a mixture of ancient engineering nous and fast-emerging nano- and micro-engineering advances.


Designers have started to harness the synergy of water, energy and waste in skyscrapers such as the 71-storey, clean-tech Pearl River Tower in Guangzhou, China - hailed as one of the most environmentally friendly big structures on the planet.

The 309-metre skyscraper is about the same height as the Sydney Tower and has features such as harvesting water from chilled surfaces to control indoor humidity that, once filtered, is reused for pot-plant irrigation and toilet flushing. It's an example of a single piece of looped kit serving the dual functions of energy reduction and water recovery.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'H')ere's an example of where we are heading. . .

Self-sustaining buildings on the rise

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wildbourgman', 'A')ll I'm saying is that if people were not conditioned to think that government would bail out their poor judgement they would have better judgement. I know people that were involved in a Madoff type situation and they honestly thought the FDIC was going to make them whole, it didn't. There were laws that the fraudster broke but they were still left holding the bag. There's a reason that people from the great depression put money in coffee cans buried in the backyard, because they learned from the pain of failing banks. I think you can expect less fraud when people know that superman is not going to save them and they had better be aware. So in nature you never expect minnows to fend off sharks you expect them to stay in estuaries where the sharks don't swim!

[dissident]

Pure laissez-faire capitalism is what we had back during the gilded era of the late 1800s. Many present day banana republics share most of the same features. The fatal mistake made in many of these discussions is to assume that there is some sort of separation of economics and politics. There isn't any. Big agglomerations of capital inevitably start to skew politics to suit there interests. "Deregulation" is a code phrase for "regulation that suits our fancy".

[Graeme]

How The World Can Save $2.9 Trillion Dollars A Year (VIDEO)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')onathan T. Scott is a sustainability expert who has been educating current and future business managers for over 9 years on how their businesses can reduce waste and become more profitable. In the following video, he discusses how every component of sustainability (finance, economics, industry, human behavior, social issues, material sciences, laws and legislation, etc.) can affect the business itself and the necessary steps it must undergo in order for it to become sustainable.
Watch this video and find out how the world can save $2,900,000,000,000 in annual costs savings by eliminating waste (using energy and resources more efficiently).