[mrobert]

If I spend $90 worth of resources, to create $100 worth of products, but by the next year, I get smarter and only spend $85 worth of resources to create the same $100 worth of products ... isnt' that growth? Sustainable one?

Offcourse, it's a lot easier to spend $182 worth of resources to create $200 worth of services.

The only growth we make ... is the amount of our stupidity.

[ohanian]

What are you talking about?
I don't waste oil.

It's only a waste if it does not brings "benefit" to me.

Since all my usage of oil bring benefit to me thus I do not waste oil.

I challenge you to give me an example of anyone wasting oil.

[markam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f I spend $90 worth of resources, to create $100 worth of products, but by the next year, I get smarter and only spend $85 worth of resources to create the same $100 worth of products ... isnt' that growth?

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrobert', 'I')f I spend $90 worth of resources, to create $100 worth of products, but by the next year, I get smarter and only spend $85 worth of resources to create the same $100 worth of products ... isnt' that growth? Sustainable one?

Offcourse, it's a lot easier to spend $182 worth of resources to create $200 worth of services.

The only growth we make ... is the amount of our stupidity.

[NEOPO]

amen?
and
Uhm some peoples definition of "benefit" is a baggy full of crack.

Oil or crack - I suppose there is no difference.

Some people will never realize nor admit there is a serious problem and even if/when they do they cannot realize or then admit that they are part of it.

"I drove xx miles for a pack of cigarettes - I benefitted therefore it was not a waste of resources."

Its conditioning - programming - brainwashing.
Wonder why we banned subliminal messaging.
Who me?
I hate it when the MC is slightly cross eyed

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', 'I')t's only a waste if it does not brings[sic] "benefit" to me.

[gego]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elan_Rasa', 'O')bservation: We tend to waste oil and don't use it responsibly (especially the US).
This point can be argued, but when you consider that about 3% of the world's pop is using 25% of the world's oil, I consider most of it's use as wasteful. Consider that most of the oil goes towards transportation purposes and maintaining an infrastructure (suburbia) that is a waste of most of our resources.

[simontay78]

“The Matrix – Agent Smith once said, we are like a disease. We multiply and consume, once the resources are gone we spread to another area and multiply…. and consume!”

The end comes when there are no more resources left for us to consume.

[MacG]

Why we waste oil? For the same reason we waste energy in all forms:

It makes us feel good!

Useful energy, specially in the form of food and mobility is absolutely fundamental to sustain life itself. We are hardwired by millions of years of evolution to feel good when we are highly mobile and have a lot of food. The more the better. No limits upward.

Look at the old kings and tzars for guidance. The heremitage in St Petersburg and the castle in Versailles should give a hint.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I') am bothered by this post.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrobert', 'I')f I spend $90 worth of resources, to create $100 worth of products, but by the next year, I get smarter and only spend $85 worth of resources to create the same $100 worth of products ... isnt' that growth? Sustainable one?

[JustinFrankl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', 'I')t's only a waste if it does not brings[sic] "benefit" to me.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', 'W')e use it because it's there, because all living things use what's available in their environment to the full extent of their abilities. As something gets used up, to the extent that it was necessary the population declines. Liebig's Law.

[ohanian]

Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. ...The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive.

Frank Herbert, Dune
US science fiction novelist (1920 - 1986)

[CrudeAwakening]

I agree that what constitutes wasteful behaviour is ultimately a value judgement. Whether or not a person's behaviour is wasteful cannot be determined without reference to the needs of the group to which the individual belongs, and among which the scarce resource is to be distributed.

Perhaps the OP was referring to the lack of a conservation ethic amongst the general population. No doubt this is largely due to the ready availability of cheap energy to which people have grown accustomed. Individually profligate use of energy has very little impact on the individual, but collectively, has an impact on the group which may nevertheless remain imperceptible to the individual, if the group size is large enough. It is only when there is sufficient feedback to the individual as to the consequences of his/her energy usage habits, that these habits are likely to change. I think it has become much easier to treat resources wastefully as societies have become delocalised and the group size has increased, diluting this feedback mechanism and reducing the incentive for behavioural change.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'W')hether or not a person's behaviour is wasteful cannot be determined without reference to the needs of the group to which the individual belongs, and among which the scarce resource is to be distributed.

[CrudeAwakening]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'W')hether or not a person's behaviour is wasteful cannot be determined without reference to the needs of the group to which the individual belongs, and among which the scarce resource is to be distributed.

[Frank]

Our economic system assumes infinite resources and that the market will always provide solutions. While I agree in principle with this system, it only works if all the "cost" of something is included in its "price". I think that's why we have issues with pollution and using diminishing resources: there's no price-component to account for these types of externalities. People can "afford" to waste these resources - at least for now.

[gg3]

Good one Frank. Nice & also concise.

---

So let's get some clear definitions here:

1) Waste is defined as expenditure of material, energy, money, and/or labor, beyond that which is needed to accomplish a task or achieve a goal. Waste and efficiency can be traded off among these variables.

2) Empirical conditions are assumed to include finite supplies of oil, approximately half of which have been consumed to date, and finite supplies of other minerals and natural resources at various stages of depletion.

3) Big-picture goals are assumed to include preserving civilization (defined as a type of or condition of society in which accumulated knowledge increases over time and violence decreases over time) and avoiding sudden mass dieoff of humans.

4) Individual behaviors are assumed to be generalizable rather than exceptional. That is, any instance of individual behavior will be considered as an example that is generalized to all individuals within that individual's society; claims of exceptions to general rules are a-priori invalid.

---

The first thing to note is that Europeans and Britons manage to achieve a standard of living approximately equal to that of Americans, while consuming approx. 40% less energy and material resources.

Thus it is inescapable that approx. 40% of the energy and material used by Americans is pure waste, above and beyond the level needed to achieve the given standard of living.

Now we can ask "why" that occurs.

One obvious factor is geography: America is more spread-out; a given "social radius" in the US occupies a greater geographic radius than in the UK or Europe. However this alone does not provide a complete answer.

The complete answer is: Our lower population density and our historically abundant material and energy resources, have combined to produce lower prices for energy and materials throughout our entire history. These lower prices have covered up comparative inefficiencies in technologies. This situation has persisted throughout the 20th Century to the point where it has created a sense of entitlement in members of presently-living generations.

In other words, we do it because our history has enabled us to do it to the point where we believe we are entitled to do it.

And you know what that word "entitlements" refers to...

Yes, that's right: We have become no different than third-generation welfare queens who scream bloody murder at any suggestion of cutting back the dole or having to work for a living. That's the blunt truth.

It's called being lazy and spoiled.

[gego]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'G')ood one Frank. Nice & also concise.

---

So let's get some clear definitions here:

1) Waste is defined as expenditure of material, energy, money, and/or labor, beyond that which is needed to accomplish a task or achieve a goal. Waste and efficiency can be traded off among these variables.

2) Empirical conditions are assumed to include finite supplies of oil, approximately half of which have been consumed to date, and finite supplies of other minerals and natural resources at various stages of depletion.

3) Big-picture goals are assumed to include preserving civilization (defined as a type of or condition of society in which accumulated knowledge increases over time and violence decreases over time) and avoiding sudden mass dieoff of humans.

4) Individual behaviors are assumed to be generalizable rather than exceptional. That is, any instance of individual behavior will be considered as an example that is generalized to all individuals within that individual's society; claims of exceptions to general rules are a-priori invalid.

---

The first thing to note is that Europeans and Britons manage to achieve a standard of living approximately equal to that of Americans, while consuming approx. 40% less energy and material resources.

Thus it is inescapable that approx. 40% of the energy and material used by Americans is pure waste, above and beyond the level needed to achieve the given standard of living.

Now we can ask "why" that occurs.

One obvious factor is geography: America is more spread-out; a given "social radius" in the US occupies a greater geographic radius than in the UK or Europe. However this alone does not provide a complete answer.

The complete answer is: Our lower population density and our historically abundant material and energy resources, have combined to produce lower prices for energy and materials throughout our entire history. These lower prices have covered up comparative inefficiencies in technologies. This situation has persisted throughout the 20th Century to the point where it has created a sense of entitlement in members of presently-living generations.

In other words, we do it because our history has enabled us to do it to the point where we believe we are entitled to do it.

And you know what that word "entitlements" refers to...

Yes, that's right: We have become no different than third-generation welfare queens who scream bloody murder at any suggestion of cutting back the dole or having to work for a living. That's the blunt truth.

It's called being lazy and spoiled.