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THE Energy & Meat Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.
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Do you think meat consumption reduction could save oil and delay peak oil problems?

Poll ended at Sat 11 Mar 2006, 01:27:27

Yes, I'm a vegan and if everyone was, the world would be a more peaceful place.
14
No votes
Yes, but I eat meat. It doesn't matter what I do. It's what everyone does that matters.
6
No votes
No, Jevon's Paradox still applies.
9
No votes
No, there are other ways to reduce oil consumption than to deny people an essential food group.
14
No votes
No, I deny the facts presented in this post.
5
No votes
Yes, but the MEAT lobby will never let that happen.
7
No votes
No, it's too late to implement anything to stave off any peak oil effects.
6
No votes
No, it is a cultural possibility for people to stop eating something that has been the centerpiece of their meals.
2
No votes
No, meat will get more expensive as oil gets more expensive and the market will handle it.
18
No votes
 
Total votes : 81

Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby seldom_seen » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 23:50:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'I')'m not a 9-month-old infant

You were at one point, and your mother had the smarts to either breast feed you and/or give you animal proteins.

If you would have read down in the BBC article, you would notice a critical paragraph:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey would miss out on proteins, iron, calcium, essential fatty acids and raw fibre, which will all affect their development.

Those long chain essential fatty acids don't come from fruits and vegetables, yet they are essential nonetheless.

My argument here is not based on an "idealogy" or a "belief system," which charaterizes much of the vegan mind. An idealogy that excludes data that conflicts with its belief system.

My argument is based on the findings of paleo-anthropology and nutritional science (and personal nutritional experience). If you don't believe me, I don't really care. Trying to convince someone of the nutritional religion of veganism, that they may not have all the facts straight. Is like trying to convince a christian fundamentalists that the earth is older than 6,000 years. A futile endeavor.

The articles posted merely show real world examples where this nutritional religion is either killing people or making them sick.
But how the world turns. One day, cock of the walk. Next, a feather duster.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby firestarter » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 23:56:49

Keith Holmes, former world champion middleweight boxer

Carl Lewis, winner of nine Olympic Gold Medals and one of the greatest athletes of the twentieth century

Martina Navratilova, champion tennis player - one of the most successful tennis players in history

Dave Scott, six-time Ironman Champion and first inductee into the Ironman Hall of Fame

Lucy Stephens, triathlete



Vegans all.



If I was younger, and still running competetively, I'd never eat red meat. As an over the hill has been, I occasionally indulge myself....at some risk. Ever read Fast Food Nation? I'm no food Nazi, and a little meat here and there is, in my view, worth the risk. I'll never forget EG Robinson in Soylent Green, when Chuck Heston brought him a piece of rare meat and the old man nearly died from ecstasy. Until that reality catches up to us, I'll indulge my fancy, albeit infrequently. Lighten up.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby seldom_seen » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 00:00:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('billg', 'V')egans can get their omega 3s from flax seeds/oil. The body can convert the ALA in flaxseed to the DHA needed for brain tissue development.

The scientific understanding of if/when/how/where this conversion occurs is tenuous at best, and your posted link indicates that it doesn't work for everyone...closing with the question "DHA: Should Vegans Supplement?" Of which I would emphatically reply: yes.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby BlisteredWhippet » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 00:08:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I disagree. Permaculture is close to the earth and allows for recycling of human waste, scraps, and compost. It replaces petroleum with human energy and chemical nutrients with human nutrients delilvered by human. It is a closed agriculture system. But it depends on people being close to the land and that demands land redistribution and that requires revolution.


Permaculture is too close to the Earth. It attempts to do nature "one better" which is a scientific ethos. The idea of agriculture being a closed system is false. There are limits to what we can control. To me, permaculture is a system of taking a philosophy of control to its limits within a scope that, in your words, "replaces petroleum with human energy". Think about how much energy you're talking about here- time as well as energy- because we know how much energy a barrel of oil represents as human labor... thats a LOT of labor. Redistribution of land into small plots, everyone intensively farming... this is the big picture? The grand solution? I say it is nothing more than a survival tactic for a philosophy of life that is in its death throes. I would prefer an approach like "Natural Farming", where the bulk of the work is done for us... where natural systems are allowed to grow our food for us without us having to overengineer super anal-retentive control logic to do what Nature will do if we worked with it rather than against it.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Loki » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 03:53:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'I')'m not a 9-month-old infant

You were at one point, and your mother had the smarts to either breast feed you and/or give you animal proteins.

You said we need meat or we'll die, a general statement that was obviously meant to include adults. Now you're arguing that babies need breast milk. Switching direction mid argument, huh? Shifty. Yes, the gods gave mothers those protruding things on their chest for a reason. If they can't figure out how to use them, they probably shouldn't be passing on their DNA.

I was arguing for vegetarianism, which includes animal-based foods. You ignore this and cite a story about radical fruitarians and infant nutrition. Then another about vegans and infant nutrition. Hmm, more shiftiness. No "ideology," huh? Ha! Your posts have been overflowing with it. And please don't cite that "paleolithic diet" garbage. You want to talk about ideology? You want to talk about assumptions built on speculation built on a highly selective reading of the facts?
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby seldom_seen » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 04:35:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')ou said we need meat or we'll die

Please quote where I said that?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow you're arguing that babies need breast milk.

As I've said throughout this thread. Humans need the long chain essential fats. These can not be found in fruits and vegetables. One of the best sources of these fats is your moms breast milk (provided she is not depleted, and why vegetarians often eat meat when they're pregnant). However it becomes a little awkward to rely on this source when you're no longer a little baby.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'A')nd please don't cite that "paleolithic diet" garbage. You want to talk about ideology? You want to talk about assumptions built on speculation built on a highly selective reading of the facts?

I didn't cite the "paleolithic diet" either. However, I would be very interested to hear you elaborate on your utter disdain for this "idealogy."

I would be happy to debate you on the topic?
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Loki » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 05:01:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'H')umans giving up meat eating by choice is like a cougar giving up deer (their primary food source). It will never happen. Why?

The practices of industrial agriculture aside, natural meat (and fish) contains long-chain essential fatty acids. Yes, essential. We need these fats to fuel our energy intensive brains.

You didn't use the word "die," but your point is clear. What does "essential" mean in the context of a dietary discussion if not required for continued existence, i.e., required to avoid death?

I don't care to debate you about the paleolithic diet. It's not something I'm particularly interested in, just as I have no interest in debating you about the low-carb diet or about the South Beach diet or the Mediterranean diet, etc., etc., etc. Suffice it say there was no "paleolithic diet." There were paleolithic diets. All included a percentage of meat, which, based on living hunter-gatherer societies, probably ranged from 20% to 80%. But it's illogical to argue that just because my hunter-gatherer ancestors got 20-80% of their calories from meat I must therefore eat meat or die. It does not follow.

You still haven't explained why I'm still alive and kicking after years of vegetarianism. I await your answer.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby seldom_seen » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 06:04:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'i')t's illogical to argue that just because my hunter-gatherer ancestors got 20-80% of their calories from meat I must therefore eat meat or die. It does not follow.

You still haven't explained why I'm still alive and kicking after years of vegetarianism. I await your answer.

Loki, in all due respect. I don't give a poop what you eat. If vegetarianism is your gig and it works for you thats great. There are many health benefits to eating fruits and vegetables, but I would guess that you don't eat strictly just fruits and vegetables. You probably work in some dairy, some fish, or supplements here and there like most vegetarians.

No, your not going to fall over dead without meat, and you know I never said that anywhere in this thread. In fact you could go 30-60 days, maybe even longer without eating any food at all before you fell over dead.

One thing is certain though, when you were a baby and your body was growing and developing you did take in animal protein, either directly or indirectly from your mother's milk. Once your body "set up shop" so to speak, you could then get away with more stuff without detrimental effects.

Another thing is certain, many people who supplement the long chain EFAs find great health benefits. Some of them include reduction of triglycerides, reduced chance of heart attack, better 'mood' and 'well being'. Harvard researcher Andrew Stoll used high doses of fish oil to cure 'lost cause' cases of bipolar disorder. Ray Audette author of an evil "paleo nutrition" book used a high protein diet with large amounts of meat to cure (yes cure) his rheumatoid arthritis and type-2 diabetes. Prior to, his doctors basically wrote him off and told him to take a bunch of painkillers and get used to walking with a cane.

Bottom line is meat is good for you, very good for you, and at certain times like infancy crucial. Vegetables are good for you to, so is fruit, and nuts and seeds.

A baby though, given only vegetables would be sickly and malnourished. A baby given nothing but meat would turn out perfectly healthy.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Loki » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 06:22:07

A few minutes on Google Scholar easily refutes Seldom's arguments.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians, including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids, and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.

"Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets." Journal of the American Dietetic Association 103:6 (2003): 748-65.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')* Vegetarians tend to have lower weight, total serum cholesterol levels, and blood pressures than omnivores.
* Vegetarians have lower mortality than the population at large, attributable primarily to lower death rates from ischemic heart disease and certain cancers.
* Clinical nutritional deficiencies are uncommon even among strict vegetarians, although obtaining essential nutrients requires planning and, in some cases, vitamin supplementation.
* At present, vegetarians appear to make up less than 2% of the population, but substantial public health and environmental benefits would likely result from a more widespread adoption of vegetarianism.

Randall White and Erica Frank. "Health Effects and Prevalence of Vegetarianism." Western Journal of Medicine 160:5 (1994): 465-71.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The effect on children's growth of vegetarianism and food expenditure were tested in a sample of 627 children from three fishing communities in Madras, South India. A number of variables known to affect health and nutritional status were controlled in analyses using a two-stage general linear model technique. Using weight- and height-for-age variables as outcome, vegetarianism was a significant determinant (p = 0.02 and p = 0.05, respectively) for children > 3 yr of age, after controlling for per capita food expenditure which was insignificant at all ages.

[The statistically significant difference was that vegetarian children were taller, weighed more, and had less morbidity than non-vegetarian children]

James R. Hebert. "Relationship of vegetarianism to child growth in South India." The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 42 (1985): 1246-54.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The vegetarian subjects in the studies described in this paper appear on the whole to have enjoyed a better standard of health than have the groups they are compared with. Some, at least, of this health advantage may be explained by various factors not related to diet, such as the 'healthy volunteer effect,' the low smoking prevalence, or the high social class of vegetarians. In other cases, notably some forms of cancer, hypertension, and coronary heart disease, the effects seem to be more clearly related to diet.

Margaret Thorogood. "The Epidemiology of Vegetarianism and Health." Nutrition Research Reviews 8 (1995): 179-192.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')If known pitfalls are avoided, the growth and development of children reared on both vegan and vegetarian diets appears normal.

Tab Sanders and Sheela Reddy. "Vegetarian diets and children." American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1994:59(suppl): 1765-815.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')As part of a nutritional surveillance system of primary school children the relation between growth and vegetarianism in the Urdu, Gujarati, and Punjabi groups was explored. The aim of the analysis was to ascertain if vegetarian children from ethnic minorities are at a disadvantage in terms of nutritional status within their group of origin. Data for 80.7% of 473 Urdu children, 86.6% of 551 Gujarati children, and 84.4% of 1265 Punjabi children were available for the analysis. No significant differences in weight-for-height and triceps skinfold were found between vegetarians and non-vegetarians even after adjustment for potential confounding variables.

RJ Rona, S Chinn, S Duggal and AP Driver. "Vegetarianism and growth in Urdu, Gujarati, and Punjabi children in Britain." Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 41 (1987): 233-36


I got bored with the research after finding study after study like those quoted above. Suffice it to say, you won't die if you don't eat meat.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby seldom_seen » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 06:45:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'A') few minutes on Google Scholar easily refutes Seldom's arguments.

Interesting, your studies seem to have lots of little caveats:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')linical nutritional deficiencies are uncommon even among strict vegetarians, although obtaining essential nutrients requires planning and, in some cases, vitamin supplementation.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f known pitfalls are avoided, the growth and development of children reared on both vegan and vegetarian diets appears normal.

Known pitfalls? that sounds scary.

Here's some other studies from google scholar:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erinatal omega-3 fatty acid deficiency affects blood pressure later in life

Does the nourishment we receive as babies, or even before birth, affect our adult health? The recent findings from Barker1, Meaney2, Langley-Evans3 and their colleagues have established that intra-uterine and early post-natal factors may influence adult neural development and cardiovascular function.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ong-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in children with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder1,2

In another study using contrast analysis of the plasma polar lipid data, subjects with lower compositions of total n–3 fatty acids had significantly more behavioral problems, temper tantrums, and learning, health, and sleep problems than did those with high proportions of n–3 fatty acids.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')aternal Supplementation With Very-Long-Chain n-3 Fatty Acids During Pregnancy and Lactation Augments Children’s IQ at 4 Years of Age

The fetus and the newborn infant depend on maternal supply of DHA and AA. Our hypothesis was that maternal intake of DHA during pregnancy and lactation is marginal and that high intake of this fatty acid would benefit the child

eat your meat kids (and moms)...
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Loki » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 08:02:28

Yes, the known pitfall of an all-veggie diet is B12 deficiency. Terrifying. Take a pill or eat some dairy. And all nutritional studies (all scientific studies for that matter) have caveats. You don't think dietary studies that support meat-eating have caveats? Hell, nutritional science is one big caveat based on your definition.

Your citations don't refute that a vegetarian diet can be perfectly nutritious. You do know that you can get Omega-3 from plant sources, right?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'V')egetarians and vegans have no direct sources of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) (long chain omega-3 fatty acids) in the diet, hence they must convert alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA in the body. Researchers have questioned whether this conversion is adequate to meet human needs for long chain omega-3 fatty acids. Scientific studies suggest that although the conversion is slow and incomplete (perhaps only 10% of alpha-linolenic acid is converted)(8 ), and although vegetarians tend to have lower blood levels of long chain omega-3 fatty acids (19,20), it is sufficient to meet the needs of most people (21,22).

Davis, B. "Essential Fatty Acids in Vegetarian Nutrition." Issues in Vegetarian Dietetics 7 (1998): 5-7.


As for your suggestion that a baby on an all-meat diet would do just fine, I call bullshit. This would be about as healthy as feeding them only fruit (and we saw how well that turned out).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'A') baby though, given only vegetables would be sickly and malnourished. A baby given nothing but meat would turn out perfectly healthy.

I really don't see the point in pursuing this debate any further. You are clearly ideologically opposed to vegetarianism. No matter how many studies I cite, you will refuse to budge from your position. I frankly don't care, though I do get annoyed when people put forth patently false information. I've cited enough peer-reviewed studies to refute your claims, so I'm done. It was fun, though.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Ludi » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 14:19:44

Permaculture IS Natural Farming, you goofus!

Mollison cites Fukuoka. All the Natural Farming techniques overlap with Permaculture techniques, there's no conflict.

:roll:
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby seldom_seen » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 14:44:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')our citations don't refute that a vegetarian diet can be perfectly nutritious. You do know that you can get Omega-3 from plant sources, right?

No it can't be "perfectly nutritious." If it was, you would be able to get DHA and EPA from a vegetarian diet, which you can't. Yes you can get omega-3 from plant sources, but only the short chain ALA.

This is the achilles heal to your entire argument, and why the 'moral superiority' expressed by so many vegetarians is completely baseless. As I said earlier, vegetarianism is based more on an idealogy or belief system than on the foods humans evolved with and require for adequate health. The vegetarian, like a fundamentalist muslim, or christian, puts up a firewall that blocks out any information that may be dangerous to the creed, and information that meat may contain nutrients your body needs is certainly dangerous to the creed.

As to your contention that the body converts ALA to DHA and EPA, this has been proven time and time again to be unreliable and inadequate. Something that seems to be known by just about everyone except vegetarians. If this conversion process was so effective, you wouldn't see babies getting sick from a vegetarian diet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')erster H: Can adults adequately convert alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) to eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3)?
Int J Vitam Nutr Res 1998;68(3):159-73

The parent fatty acid ALA (18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restricted.

Regarding cardiovascular risk factors DHA has been shown to reduce triglyceride concentrations. These findings indicate that future attention will have to focus on the adequate provision of DHA which can reliably be achieved only with the supply of the preformed long-chain metabolite.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'A')s for your suggestion that a baby on an all-meat diet would do just fine, I call bullshit. This would be about as healthy as feeding them only fruit

Prove me wrong! please. Find me an example of a baby becoming malnourished from eating meat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')ou are clearly ideologically opposed to vegetarianism.

No, I'm not. I have nothing against vegetables. I love vegetables. However I certainly wouldn't restrict myself to a diet of only vegetables.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Loki » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 17:19:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')es, the known pitfall of an all-veggie diet is B12 deficiency. Terrifying. Take a pill or eat some dairy. And all nutritional studies (all scientific studies for that matter) have caveats. You don't think dietary studies that support meat-eating have caveats? Hell, nutritional science is one big caveat based on your definition.
This advice is elitist. The former prescription renders your solution meaningless to all but the wealthy, and the latter demands some animals occasionally fill in for your lapses or caveats. You can not have it both ways. If vegetarianism is fine for you then it should be fine for everybody. But it isn't. What makes you better than the shepard that is forced to take his goat kids' life for his children. You do not have to make that decision everyday of your life and it is easy to sit on the side and judge.

Um, OK. That's an idiotic argument unworthy of response.

It's been my experience that the only people more ideologically driven about diet than vegetarians (and various permutations thereof) are anti-vegetarians. They get extremely defensive about their own dietary choices, and do everything they can to tear down other people's choices, despite mountains of scientific evidence that show those choices are perfectly acceptable from a nutritional standpoint. This thread is a perfect example of that observation.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby Loki » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 19:11:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')I believe that an industrial monocropped vegetarian diet that you live on is worse for the planet, uses more land, petroleum, highways, trucks, supermarkets, and commutes than my local sustainable, neighborhood meat production system.

Yes, yes, we all understand how superior you think your little situation is, how much more sustainable, how much more humane, how people in your area are self-sufficient, won't be bothered by Peak Oil, etc., etc., etc. You beat your chest about it every other post you make on this board. It gets a bit old.

And what pray tell do you know about my diet? Do you follow me around and record what I eat? You are making all sorts of ASSumptions, typical of your arrogant approach here.
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Re: Eating meat: I'm not giving that up!

Postby holmes » Wed 13 Dec 2006, 17:55:18

Yes meat is good in moderation for the body. However raw broccoli is 45% protien. Raw seeds and nuts provide all the protein one needs really. as well as avacadoes. Eat a raw diet. sear your red meat for 5 seconds on both sides. Enzymes are important for feeling full. Cooked dead food leaves you feeling hungry quick. I actually eat kosher organic red meat raw. Eggs straight from under the hen cracked in a cup and drunk down. Americans have been rpogrammed to think we need all this mega protien. It adds to the hanging gut syndrome. I eat 50% less than I used to and feel 50% fuller now. Very cool.
cooked food has no enzymes available. Therfore your body need to work over time with its enzymes to digest. Taking energy that could otherwise be going to repair and maintainence of the body. Keep the aging and break down in check. I love meat tho!
"To crush the Cornucopians, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."
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