[Empty_Well]

Wouldn't the cause of this be more on the fact that industry has shipped off, not so much because of high taxes, US taxes aren't that high to begin with, but simply because of the fact that this is how capitalism works? If you can get a better deal somewhere else you take it. That is the idea of pure capitalism capitalism.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'b')ig business and corporate greed sold them all out.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Empty_Well', 'W')ouldn't the cause of this be more on the fact that industry has shipped off, not so much because of high taxes, US taxes aren't that high to begin with, but simply because of the fact that this is how capitalism works? If you can get a better deal somewhere else you take it. That is the idea of pure capitalism capitalism.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', ' ')Starve the masses by paying them just enough so they can only buy the affordable goods from the company store.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', ' ')Starve the masses by paying them just enough so they can only buy the affordable goods from the company store.

[Outcast_Searcher]

OK. So somethng has caused it.

Now, do we continue to yell at each other and blame each other, and basically do more of the same while things get worse?

In the 80's and 90's we can be forgiven, to some extent anyway, IMO, for thinking the 70's were an anomoly, and that better times could be had in the first world - with things like PC tech. leading the way to prosperity.

To anyone with a functioning brain, the past decade should have pretty clearly demonstrated that -- oops -- this doesn't seem to be working.

Technology (automation) crushing jobs, and the fact that the first world is at a HUGE disadvantage in the labor arbitrage game -- is at the crux of much of the problem.

NO one - not the voting public, certainly not the politicians who want to be re-elected -- wants to endure the painful reality that retrenching, that massive investment in things like education and infrastructure, that facing the reality that on average, the first world must accept a MUCH lower standard of living.

Until that happens, which party you elect (and their empty promises) just decorates the path to hell with different colored signs claiming all is well.

What might work? I suggest things like:

1). A tax system based FAR more on consumption than income. Use credits for the poor to keep this from being too regressive, at least to a point. This addresses resource constraints. It can address energy if done properly. It also stops directly punishing people for being productive, and rewarding them for not.

2). Invest in education and infrastructure. Also, realize that just throwing more money at education isn't working in K-12. Maybe trying things like charter schools is a worthy experiment -- we sure as hell need to do SOMETHING or we just become less able to compete as a society.

3). On balance, significantly raise overall taxation and reduce government consumption until we eliminate, say 90% of the government debt. Will this be painful -- yes. We will have to either act like adults and priortize what we spend, or cut EVERYTHING (which I think politically is the only way we'll do it).

(Once the debt mess is cleaned up, I like low taxes as much as anyone -- as long as we don't run deficits and society can live with the programs we have -- cut taxes all you want. Guess what -- we'll probably have to COMPROMISE on this.)

Do I think this will happen? Hell no -- there are FAR too few adults in the room.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program of yelling and blaming...

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '1')). A tax system based FAR more on consumption than income. Use credits for the poor to keep this from being too regressive, at least to a point. This addresses resource constraints. It can address energy if done properly. It also stops directly punishing people for being productive, and rewarding them for not.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '1')). A tax system based FAR more on consumption than income. Use credits for the poor to keep this from being too regressive, at least to a point. This addresses resource constraints. It can address energy if done properly. It also stops directly punishing people for being productive, and rewarding them for not.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '3')). On balance, significantly raise overall taxation and reduce government consumption until we eliminate, say 90% of the government debt. Will this be painful -- yes. We will have to either act like adults and priortize what we spend, or cut EVERYTHING (which I think politically is the only way we'll do it).

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '3')). On balance, significantly raise overall taxation and reduce government consumption until we eliminate, say 90% of the government debt. Will this be painful -- yes. We will have to either act like adults and priortize what we spend, or cut EVERYTHING (which I think politically is the only way we'll do it).

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')The problem is tuff decisions have to be made. Like, do you decide that health care is a right or a privilege. If it's the latter then will only the wealthy be allowed to live long and healthy lives while the poor will suffer and die young?

[papa moose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')o who decides who's grandma is worth more? How do you compromise such a decision? That's why its an all or nothing proposition.

[Windmills]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'I')'ve stated this before, the problem with education is a lack of parental discipline, unsolvable by rules and regs...

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', ' ')Perhaps in political terms, getting an education is now "acting liberal."

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('papa moose', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')o who decides who's grandma is worth more? How do you compromise such a decision? That's why its an all or nothing proposition.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')So who decides who's grandma is worth more? How do you compromise such a decision? That's why its an all or nothing proposition.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '
')So who decides who's grandma is worth more? How do you compromise such a decision? That's why its an all or nothing proposition.

[timmac]

More Americans Work For the Government Than In Manufacturing, Farming, Fishing, Forestry, Mining & Utilities Combined

If we don't make serious changes now than it will be 50+% wage taxes or Bankruptcy..

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/04/more-americans-work-for-the-government-than-in-manufacturing-farming-fishing-forestry-mining-and-utilities-combined/

[ I vote for bankruptcy ]

[Lore]

Yeah... right on, let's fire all those government workers, of which most are contractors such as the military, you know like in defense, or maybe just pay them all Wal-Mart wages. Then we can decrease the tax base and increase our poverty rolls even more. While at the same time reducing the quality of necessary services. After all we only closed 15,000 factories in the last 10 years and sent most those jobs away, shit-canning 8 million workers because of corporate greed and the greed of consumers for more unnecessary stuff at the lowest prices.

Then again 70% of the budget is tied up in Social Security, Medicare and the military. We are only playing with 14% of what’s left right now.

Since the corporate oligarchy pays no taxes then you have to wonder what government there will be left and who will pay for it for such things as security. I guess it will be up to the individual then to form militias or maybe, money willing, you can contract with the Hells Angels to defend you. I wonder how much their protection service costs these days?

[timmac]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'Y')eah... right on, let's fire all those government workers