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THE Crime Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby Wildwell » Thu 15 Dec 2005, 19:23:43

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/ ... s_full.pdf

Right a few more clues, although it doesn’t answer the basic question – why has crime risen so much post war?

Social exclusion

Low income, Lack of access to transport, Poor environment.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/ ... s_full.pdf

http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/fac ... factsheets


Compared with the general population people in prison are:
• 13 times as likely to have been in care as a child.
• 13 times as likely to be unemployed.
• 10 times as likely to have been a regular truant.
• 2.5 times as likely to have had a family member convicted of a criminal offence.
• 6 times as likely to have been a young father.
• 15 times as likely to be HIV positive.

Basic skills

• 80 per cent of prisoners have the writing skills at or below the level of an 11-year-old child.
• 65 per cent have numeracy skills at or below the level of an 11-year-old child.
• 50 per cent have reading skills at or below the level of an 11-year-old child.

Health background

• 60 to 70 per cent of prisoners were using drugs before imprisonment,
• Over 70 per cent suffer from at least two mental disorders,
• And 20 per cent of male and 37 per cent of female sentenced prisoners have attempted suicide in the past.
• Around half of prisoners had no GP before they came into custody;
• One prison drugs project found that although 70% of those entering the prison had a drug misuse problem, 80% of these had never had any contact with drug treatment services.

95% are men and 12% are black

Research has shown that alcohol is a contributory factor in many instances of crime and disorder. According to the latest British Crime Survey, victims judged that offenders were under the influence of alcohol in 40% of incidents. Drunkenness is associated with a majority of murders, manslaughters and stabbings and half of domestic assaults.

Poor Parenting

Feckless' and abusive parents are to be blamed by the government for youth crime and unruly behaviour in schools, it has been reported.
Education Secretary Estelle Morris will argue bad parenting has created a "cycle of disrespect" among children, in a speech to the Association of Teachers and Lecturers on Wednesday, according to The Observer newspaper.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1890222.stm

Low self esteem

http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/finding ... cy/n71.asp

Poor diet

Encouraging healthier eating could be the government's secret weapon in the fight against crime, according to experts.

A study by researchers at the University of Oxford has found that adding vitamins and other vital nutrients to young people's diets can cut crime.

They found that improving the diets of young offenders at a maximum security institution in Buckinghamshire cut offences by 25%.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2063117.stm

65 per cent. of arrestees provided a urine sample that tested positive for one or more illegal drug.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-of ... 212w12.htm

Trends in drug use

Although opiate addiction and other 'drug problems' were recognised a hundred years ago, political concern in the UK dates from the 1950s when their recreational use began to spread among young people. The association between cannabis and protest movements in the 1960s attracted further attention, as did the arrival of LSD. Some problems, like barbiturate misuse, have largely disappeared. Others, like amphetamine misuse, have persisted. The 1980s and 1990s saw a heroin epidemic involving inhalation ('chasing the dragon') that affected teenagers as well as young adults. Increasing quantities of cocaine also entered the country, used both as powder and in its smokeable form ('crack'). From the late 1980s, deaths among young Ecstasy-users shifted media interest to the emergence of a 'dance drug' culture. At the start of the twenty-first century rising seizures of heroin and its widening use in major cities and elsewhere have become a renewed focus of concern.

Plus graphs showing rises in seizures:

Sources and actual figures:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb402.pdf

Report on binge drinking: Long-term increase since the 1950s, drink more than double the amount consumed then

http://www.ias.org.uk/factsheets/binge-drinking.pdf


So crime is caused by:

Social inequality: Education, transport, poor housing coupled with:

Poor diet and parenting

Coupled with (mainly) drink and drugs

Drugs in particular have increased because of cheap oil transport.


Therefore post peak, will crime become better or worse?
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 15 Dec 2005, 19:28:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat do they mean when they say "it appears that this correlation reflects causation"? Appears? Does it matter how it "appears" to them. Maybe it would "appear" different to someone who wasn't expecting causation.


Maybe it would. I don't think that, given their methods, they can establish causation. In fact, I'm not sure that anything can. However, we can guess that causation does occur for this correlation; it certainly makes sense.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps the positive correlation would vanish for the period 1900 - 1950. Perhaps the correlation is valid in Northern Europe but not in South America, or vice versa.


From what I've read, it's more difficult to relate income gap to crime the farther back you go due to the poorer and poorer quality of information available.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow do you establish a positive correlation as causation?


I don't know that it's possible in the way you seem to be thinking. I don't know that it would be possible in any situation of any kind whatsoever.

However, Humean objections aside, the question to ask, once a correlation has been observed, is whether causation makes sense. The question can't be resolved on the data alone. But the data available does show a very good correlation between crime and income gap.

Also, sorry for the first link--it wasn't what I intended to post. Here's the one I intended to post:

http://ideas.repec.org/p/hhs/uunewp/2005_020.html
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 15 Dec 2005, 21:01:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ocial inequality: Education, transport, poor housing coupled with:

Yes, I believe this is correct.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')oor diet and parenting

While people who have money may also have poor parenting skills and make poor dietary choices, it seems to me that poverty makes those things far more likely.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')oupled with (mainly) drink and drugs-Drugs in particular have increased because of cheap oil transport.

Well, you have to be careful when dealing with drug-related crime statistics. One of the things that inflates (in my opinion) crime statistics is manufactured crime. That is, the laws that are being broken were never necessary to begin with. For instance, where I live, it's possible to go to prison for ten years if you give someone a tatoo. People go to prison for it, and that swells the crime statistics.

Similarly, there are lots of drug laws that are nonsensical. There was a case a couple years ago where a guy with chronic back pain was discovered to be growing 2 marijuana plants for his own personal consumption. He also owned a gun. Now, he was a totally decent guy, held a steady job, owned a home, had two daughters who were doing well in school, etc. Apparently, however, it's an additional crime to own a gun and grow pot; it's considered de facto attempted murder (yes, that's right). So he's in prison for the rest of his life. His case may be unusual, but there are plenty of regular joes who smoked pot at a party, got caught, and now that counts as a crime--in fact, it's the major cause of crime. But is it really criminal? I don't think so myself.

That said, there are certainly some drugs that incite towards (real) violent crime, and it is certainly a causative factor in some instances, even among people who are well above poverty level. The question to be asked, though, is whether relative gaps in material wealth cause crime in levels greater than they would be if wealth were distributed more easily. I believe it does until you reach an inflection point where it becomes impossible to commit any meaningful crime. If the rich are so rich that everyone else is dirt poor, the rich can hire enough security that crime becomes suicide.
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby Chaparral » Fri 16 Dec 2005, 03:41:54

Francis Fukuyama offers some interesting ideas on the subject in his book "The Great Disruption". He backs up his ideas where possible with large number of end notes. He basically finds that periods of social upheaval and dislocation from existing places and livelihoods are associated with rising crime and periods with static life styles and less migration are associated with less crime.

Kinda makes me think that increased crime will capitalize the "E" in long Emergency.
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 16 Dec 2005, 12:13:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chaparral', 'F')rancis Fukuyama offers some interesting ideas on the subject in his book "The Great Disruption". He backs up his ideas where possible with large number of end notes. He basically finds that periods of social upheaval and dislocation from existing places and livelihoods are associated with rising crime and periods with static life styles and less migration are associated with less crime.

Kinda makes me think that increased crime will capitalize the "E" in long Emergency.
Right, this makes more sense to me than the income disparity thing as causation for crime. Trying to say that reducing the income disparity will reduce crime is like trying to say that building a huge, beautiful, and expensive school in a ghetto will solve the academic deficiencies of the students there. It's been done, and it doesn't work. I think this is why I distrust social engineering. Some ideologue social scientists show some spurious causation where it can't really be shown to be true, and then want to reshape social policy on a massive scale. The idea that poverty, specifically, causes crime in general is nonsense. There are alot of other good places to look and they've been posted in this thread. The thing we need to do is not to raze the income gap, but to identify genuine criminality and distinguish it from bogus crimes that have no business being on the books in the first place. Putting a guy away for life for growing a little pot and owning a gun is criminal and the judges and prosecutors should be put away instead. (of course, I'm writing as if Peak Oil wasn't about to throw a wrench in the works and life will just go sailing on, business as usual. That's not going to happen, unfortunately.)
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Fri 16 Dec 2005, 12:57:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')rying to say that reducing the income disparity will reduce crime


No, this isn't my claim at all--but now I see where the confusion lies. Throwing money at the poor won't change things for at least a generation, if not much longer. Poverty and income gap probably (IMO) do cause a great increase in crime. But once they exist, the crime itself is embedded in the psyche of the people who have to live in those conditions.

Thanks to the combined life experiences of having lived near enforced poverty (I'll expound on that if anyone would like) and having managed a retail health food store and interviewed a large number of mid-wage workers, I'm convinced that growing up in poverty keeps a person from having the tools necessary to succeed at any sort of normal occupation. In many instances, without criminal activity to supplement their income, people living in poverty would literally starve. Crime therefore becomes inculcated.

Consider an analogy: Smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer. This doesn't mean that everyone who smokes gets lung cancer, or that all cases of lung cancer occur in people who smoke. But there's a strong enough correlation and a strong enough theoretical understanding that we can blame smoking for lung cancer generally. But once a person has lung cancer, stopping smoking won't cause the cancer to go away. Now, the cancer will eventually, in most instances, kill the person who has it. Cancer is the proximal cause of death, but if the person was a smoker, it is the most likely ultimate cause. And so for poverty--drugs, transience, poor diet, poor parenting, etc. are all proximal causes of crime. But poverty is an excellent indicator of those other proximal causes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')s like trying to say that building a huge, beautiful, and expensive school in a ghetto will solve the academic deficiencies of the students there. It's been done, and it doesn't work.


Of course it doesn't work. What has to be gotten at are the psychological effects of poverty, not the physical effects.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think this is why I distrust social engineering. Some ideologue social scientists show some spurious causation where it can't really be shown to be true, and then want to reshape social policy on a massive scale.


Why do you think the causation is spurious?
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby foodnotlawns » Fri 16 Dec 2005, 13:21:58

I noticed one of the liberals saying that the reason for crime is "social exclusion."

Boo . . . hoo.

Who's job is it to do the including? I say the liberal elites who claim "exclusion" is the cause of crime should all be forced to adopt some of these poor "excluded" people, to live in the same house with them!

Whining about "social exclusion" is really complaining about freedom of association. Why don't we say that pretty girls have to date nerds? And that good looking guys should have to date fat girls?

Liberals attempt to create obligation, where no natural obligation exists. White guilt is like a backpack -- just take the back pack off and throw it away. You don't owe the colored hordes anything whatsoever. If you are White, you owe it to your ancestors to breed more White people. Now that's your Natural Obligation, whether you recognize it or not.
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 16 Dec 2005, 13:34:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '
')Why do you think the causation is spurious?
Recall that you noted that the data is insufficient if you go back just a few decades. So essentially, if there is a correlation in recent years between income disparity and crime, then it only shows a little about current conditions. To establish a genuine causation between income disparity and crime would need a much longer timespan. For all we know, crime causes the social problems that result in income diparity and not the other way around. IMO, these social scientists are whistling in the dark and haven't got enough information to know anything substantive about this. Social decay, "a bad scene", increased drug use, who knows. Income disparity is ancient. Only in modern times do we see this desire to level out the income. The psychological roots for this are perhaps rooted in envy. I don't have money, but why should I care how much Richard Raintree has got? The desire to rationally control everything to do with money is doomed. The impulse to engineer society along some abstract "equitable" lines is folly. It can't work, never has, never will. Everywhere you look there are classes, castes, inequity, disparities of wealth. That is, I would suggest, the human condition. The modern ethos is hubris - scientific hubris - to think that institutions devised by people can be used to manage the collective affairs of humanity to such an outlandish degree. Previous peoples of the past would be dumbfounded at the arrogance and folly of that aspect of our times, I think. We have other examples of modern folly, too, don't we.
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby Wildwell » Fri 16 Dec 2005, 22:12:45

No one is near the nub of the problem yet – btw I was merely quoting official sources and making suggestions. Like the man says, I don't think social exclusion or low income automatically makes you a criminal. In fact to suggest such a thing is ludicrous. There was far more poverty in the past, yet, crime has risen.

Let's be a little more controversial. Has modern society produced layabouts with time (and money) on their hands? As they say the devil makes work for (some) idle hands. So I ask the question again, will the problem we worse post peak or better?
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Re: Why is crime rising?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 17 Dec 2005, 01:59:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')- In 1955 fewer than 500,000 crimes were recorded by the police in England and Wales. By the end of the 1960s there were over 1.5 million. By the end of the 1970s there were 2.7 million, today there are 5.9 million.

Other western countries are much the same, so why has crime risen?

- TV, computer games, movies?
- Drug culture and rise in availability?
- 1960s (sexual) liberation and single parent households?
- Both parents going to work for home/consumer objects?
- End of national service?
- Consumer/advertising culture?
- Parents spending less time at home – working further away?
- Destruction of religion?
- End of institutions/job for life?

BTW Oil use has a close correlating curve with crime..

In those days many people had regular union jobs and lived in the same communities as their comrades. They would not likely burgle their neighbours, who probably didn't have much worth stealing anyway.

Also, few people had cars, so burglers would be reduced to lugging their sack of silverware home on foot (public transport didn't run late).
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New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 00:14:58

In some states and countries, this is considered illegal:
Image
Guess why?

http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... eaker.html
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Re: New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby DigitalCubano » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 00:37:19

Lemme guess: cuz its a fixed gear bike?

I'm not suprised. Given their increased popularity, I figured it would only be a matter of time before they caught the ire of lawmakers.
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Re: New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 04:07:46

On the streets I ride my bike on to my work every day, sounds like a Suicide Machine! I brake all the time! To avoid traffic that has not seen me, to people pulling out of their drive ways. I have recently started using a Schwinn Mesa GSD mountain bike for my daily commutes to work. But I still must pretend I’m Invisible to avoid being hit and killed
Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
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Re: New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby bobcousins » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 05:04:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')icole LaBrie, a 23-year-old bike messenger, found out the hard way this summer that police don't consider that braking when she got a $64.80 ticket.

She was stopped for going the wrong way on a one-way street, for which she also was fined.


I'm a keen cyclist, but I still think people should not break laws just because they feel like it. There is no good reason not to have a hand brake fitted, even if you never use it. Cyclists like to style themselves as social revolutionaries, but laws are generally designed to enable everyone to share the public space safely.
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Re: New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby DigitalCubano » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 08:11:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'T')here is no good reason not to have a hand brake fitted, even if you never use it. Cyclists like to style themselves as social revolutionaries, but laws are generally designed to enable everyone to share the public space safely.


I totally agree. While I love the look of a stripped-down fixie from a sort of minimalist athstetic (I'm in the midst of converting an old Schwinn), I think that you can't get around mandating a hand brake. I don't have a problem with the folks whom can handle them, rather the fadists who are screaming down the road, just barely in control (and I've seen MANY more of the latter in the last couple of months). I don't know how any set of laws can be designed to differentiate between the two. One handbrake seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
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Re: New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby gg3 » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 09:13:17

What's needed is for fixie riders to stage various demonstrations of their capabilities to control the bikes, and invite the public, and invite representatives from various police agencies. This is an exercise in having to educate people.

That being said, yes there are ways someone can get out of control if their feet go off the pedals whilst the machine is rolling down a significant hill. The risk I'm concerned about is not to the rider him/herself, after all, consenting adults can choose their risks. What I'm concerned about is the potential hazard to others on the road.

For the latter reason, it seems reasonable to require a hand brake, at least in hilly localities such as San Francisco, even if it is rarely used. The design of the machine can be adapted so that the aesthetics are not unduly compromised, but aesthetics come second to protecting innocent members of the public.

And even if accidents involving fixies are rare, the increased popularity of these will eventually result in a serious accident, and the repercussions of that might be used against all bicycles generally.
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Re: New breed of lawbreakers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Thu 14 Sep 2006, 01:46:51

Now it was time for Officer Barnum to ask questions. He asked Holland,
“What would you do if your chain broke?”

Holland:
“I would use my feet.”

Officer Barnum:
“What if your leg muscles had a spasm?”

Holland:
“I’m not sure…these are emergency situations.”


I can't stand these dumb bastards in charge of enforcing the law. As someone else remarked:

"OK, that is real fair. What would you,Mr. Judge do if the brake cable on your car broke??? Try using your feet then."
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Organized Crime Trying to Control Energy Resources?

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 20:35:36

CNN.Com
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Attorney General Michael Mukasey warned Wednesday that organized criminal networks have penetrated portions of the international energy market and tried to control energy resources.
Attorney General Michael Mukasey speaks Wednesday at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. In a speech at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, he said similar efforts have targeted the international financial system by injecting billions of illicit funds to try to corrupt financial service providers.

True?
Diversion?
Both?
Last edited by Ferretlover on Thu 01 Oct 2009, 14:57:30, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Crime Thread.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: Organized Crime Trying to Control Energy Resources?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 20:41:38

Diversion in order to allow for more "war on terror" activities.


International criminals = terrorists
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Re: Organized Crime Trying to Control Energy Resources?

Unread postby Ferretlover » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 20:46:16

I honestly don't know if this is true.
I haven't heard anything else about this.
Given the history of organized crime's activities, it would make sense.
Unfortunately, I don't trust our government to tell the truth as far as I could throw my house.
I wonder how heavily organized crime is involved in food markets?

OH! and,
International criminals = terrorists=corrupt governments
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