What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
by Plantagenet » Tue 29 May 2007, 17:11:24
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'I') believe our old hunter-gatherer way of life was best .... It's better because of the sheer lack of "overhead', work hours are very low, socialization very high, and security very high - no hunter-gatherer ever worried themself into an early grave over credit card debt, mortgage interest, and whether they'd end up living alone under a bridge.
If you think hunting and gathering is a better lifestyle, then I suggest you live your dream and become a "hunter-gatherer" and get your food and other necessities by hunting and foraging. There are lots of folks, both Alaska native and non-native, living this lifestyle here in Alaska today, where its called subsistence living.
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by Plantagenet » Tue 29 May 2007, 17:22:36
A "post-singularity" world will be one where many of the problems that afflict the world today, such as pollution and industrialization and habitat destruction, are scientifically analyzed and corrected. It is even possible that large areas of the earth (Amazon rain forest? Alaska?) might be put off limits to development and preserved as ecological reserves, both to protect the natural species and ecosystems, and to allow some humans to choose to live as hunter-gatherers.
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by UFCjunkie » Tue 29 May 2007, 19:56:49
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'D')o you honestly think the natural environment is static? Even without the massive damage the industrial revolution caused, the earths natural systems are in a constant state of change. In some post civilization return to hunter gatherer life, the Earths natural systems will not magically restore themselves to an ideal climate.
Of course the planet changes all the time. And we humans will change with it. NOT the other way around. Its a big difference. We are not gods we are not suppose to change the way of life, thats being mad, crazy. All we have to do is listen to the earth. Right now the earth isn't well, if you think technology will save her...please turn of Star Trek for a couple of days and go out in the nature and open your mind and think. We are not gods.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'I')t all comes down to how resilient the Earth is. The anti-technologist crowd seems to think that reducing further damage will save the world. It is my belief that any passive solution will fail; simply trying to reduce future damage is not nearly enough, we need to actively clean up the damage done to the planet during the original industrial revolution.
To me that sound like an drug addict going cold turkey:
- Just one more fix, I know that after this one everything will be ok. Give me one more hit and I take care of everything Ive done bad. Give me more, I need it!
More techs gonna make it even harder or us to heal. More tech may be the death of our race for sure.
You read to much comic books.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'I')f we do lose our tech once that happens, there is very little chance of the earth cleaning itself and becoming an ideal human environment all on its own. I think it is unrealistically optimistic to think that at this late point simply stopping environmental damage will save the world. It is far more realistic that the earth will naturally continue to become ever more inhospitable to human life.
Of course the planet will heal if we stop now, is that one of your reasons to continue with techs? The earth wont survive without it? You are mad for real.
The eart will survive but most of us wont, obviously this is needed to make us realize that this isn't going to work.
Techs is going to save us...yeah right...this is not TV.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'H')unter gatherers aren’t going to be able to stop this; the only possible chance is powerful new technologies.
Hello! We are not suppose to change anything! We are not gods. Leave it alone the earth will take care of it alone. All we have to do is hunt our food and make sure we not use more of the enviorment we need for survive the rest is taking care of by this planet. If we don't stop I'm pretty sure this planet will wipe out us because we are a to big treath to its health, I don't believe we are so far from that. Your way of thinking will take us all the way.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')We eat the wrong food we don’t exercise enough
Speak for yourself
The despicable fast food couch potato culture that the US has fostered is hardly a solid argument that technology is not accelerating or that technology is bad for us. Technology, and what we choose to do with it, is too completely different things. Personally, I use modern technology to make my life fitter and healthier than average. Technology has helped me do this, not made it harder. The problems you refer to are purely cultural.
I did not speak about my self...I speak about the everyday growing problem of overweight kids and this crap food we eat. Not only fast food. Synthetic food, gene manipulated food, we are creating food that we aint used to. Our bodys are used to fresh food from nature and not conservated and filled with chemicals. This world is a bout making money not about our health. It's not cultural or maybe it is...it's from the money culture, the same culture your future is from. You know the culture that is killing this planet.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have a place in nature, what makes you think that have changed? What is our new goal? What is the goal with your vision? What is your vision? I know "achieving true long-term sustainability". But what exactly does that mean, who do we achive that? By killing a hole planet or just half of it then it will appear to us? That just sounds nuts to me...
We are nature, what makes you think we are unnatural? We are just animals that happened to have the right biological tools to develop technology. Technology is a byproduct of a completely natural system, and anything we do with technology, no matter how artificial you think of it, is still a byproduct of a natural system. So why should we stop using what nature gave is, that is, technology?
we are unnatural because we have stept out of nature and live outside it. We dont longer live after the sun we live after the clock, day or night. We dont longer eat natural grown fodd we eat unnatural grown food. We do everythingunatural. We do everything to make money, thats our new life...making the dollars, pretty much unnatural.
Technology is a chemical reaction we created and that dosent mean its ment to be. We can creat atomicbombs but it dosent mean we can go around blowing em upp all the time, we created guns it dosent mean we are suppose to go around and kill everyone. Jsut because we can do it dosent mean it ment to be.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'A')s for achieving true sustainability, that’s about the singularity. But you’ve got it all wrong by thinking that it’s about destroying the planet. Once (if) we get there, in only a few decades (really the blink of an eye), we will have the power to clean up the mess we made. Specifically how is too complex to go into right now, but there are many benefits to the various technologies in the pipeline.
Now we are talking Star Trek again and I don't like Star Trek. What will our new place in the universe be? A cleaner race? That goes around and clean everything up that humans messed up? What will our purpose be? Will we just go around and do nothing? Everything will be so damn easy, what will we do?
You know our bodys are created for hundred of thousands of years and you think we will maintain our bodys in this new way of living for millions of years that you say this new way of life are going to give us. We are suppose to use our bodys or else the get weaker and break.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'J')ust how environmentally friendly do you think ‘nature’ will be in the future when ‘nature’ destroys 99% of life on Earth? It is going to happen. The climate will change. At some point a massive asteroid will collide with the planet. At some point, the next super volcano will blow and wipe out most of the biosphere. It will be perfectly natural, but I would rather live in an “artificial” world were intelligence is so great that we could actually advert such disasters.
I know I saw that movie too...
For real do you think we can stop such things? Again, you watch to much movies. If you are looking for these kinds of intelligence they are probably allready out ther in form of aliens. Just wait for them to come rescue you and let them take you to the moder ship. we will never get that kind of technology here on earth, I don't think we have the same resources as they do.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'I')ndeed, as you said, killing the planet or just part of it sounds nuts. But that’s exactly what will happen, 100% guaranteed, if we don’t reach the technological singularity.
There goes the drug addict again...Give me one more, give me one more or I will die!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')It's the techs that put us in this situation to begin with. We only have to learn from it and don't let this happen again. Now we have tried, it didn't work, let's go back to something that did work and go on from there. This time we wont have oil to do the same idiot things we just did. The last hundred of years have just been I giant step in the wrong direction,
Yes, technology brings peril, as was discussed earlier. But it also offers many benefits, which you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge. The fact is that the last one hundred years has seen unparalleled benefit to the human condition. But just because we have not yet brought the benefits to all of humanity, and have not yet solved all of our problems, does not mean that we have failed.
Yet solved our problems? Have they solved any problems? I think they only have created problems. They only problems they have solved is problems they have created but all solutions have caused even more problems you just can se them through all the problems. We've faild allright...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Who dosen't care about our species? Me?
Sure seems that way. You would prefer to see our species go extinct in order to survive a little longer rather than risk our species going extinct whilst trying to save the world and achieve true long-term sustainability.
Ok, Capten Kirk! Lets save the world! Push the "Save the world button"...please.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 's')oon is going to wipe out billions of people
Can I borrow your crystal ball, because I don’t know the future. I don’t know if we will reach the singularity, or blow ourselves up, or whatever. But you seem to have all the answers. Please, enlighten me. Smile
Quote:
You are talking about that technology is going to make us live for billions of years while I see that technology is going to kill us in less then 100. I gotta say your dream and vision sounds great but its far from the reallity i've learned to see since I reached my 20's and stoped listen to those (parents, grownups) who forced me to believe those things you are telling me. I need proff not words. When does this world come? Before or after we wiped out our selfs?
Before. The singularity is estimated to be around 30 to 40 years away, long before, according to your crystal ball, technology kills us within 100 year. But you should know that long before then, in as little as 10 to 20 years, we get one of the first big technologies of the new age – molecular nanotech. Once this happens, we won’t need to consume much energy any more, we won’t need to take our resources from the ground, and we will have the means of restoring much of the earth to it’s former glory.
You say you dont know the future and want to borrow my crystal ball? its seems like you got a pretty plan for us. Quite detailed too I have to say. Why borrow my crystal ball when yours is so good.
my ball only tells me about a massive die of in the near future as you quoted me above.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'T')ry doing that with hunter gatherer technology. Wink
I know on TV everything is possible so I have to give you that, the H/G tech can't do that, it can only be done on TV.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'B')ury our heads in the sand, as you seem to be suggesting?
No, I'm suggesting turn of the Sience Fiction Channel and wake up and smell the coffe because soon you drown in it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y way is the best for not only us but also for the bees, dogs, birds, fishes, trees, rivers, flowers, horses and for the grass.
Well, until some secret enemy of the free world unleashes some bio-engineered pathogen that destroys said bees, dogs, birds, fishes, trees, rivers, flowers, horses and the grass, which could have been avoided if biotechnology was not outlawed but governed responsibly.
Can you imagine what we will be able to do with even greater technology in the wrong hands. It doesn't mather if its government responsibly
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'O')r alternatively, your way is better until an asteroid collision destroys most life on earth. Or any other number of natural disaster scenarios.
Havent you turnd of the TV yet? Got damned...I know we are going to send up Bruce in the sky and put a bomb on the big rock and his going to save the world till next disaster comes our way.
Our new life purpose, look out for disasters and clean the earth, what more will we do in that new world of yours?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'N')o sorry, the anti-technology position only sounds natural and good for the environment on the surface. But if you step back, take a look at the big picture, and actually think about all aspects of the equation, you should be able to see that technology is our only hope.
Right, now go look at the Animal Planet for a while, at least do something that brings you back to earth.
Im from Sweden and the time is 01:16 AM and I have to go to bed, work and stuff you know.
I just want to add that I'm prepareing for a hunter and gatherer world and if that don't come I'm pretty mutch prepared for anything.
I Love This Planet, I Don't Want To Kill It Anymore!
Man Belongs To The Earth * Earth Do Not Belong to Man
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by Omnitir » Tue 29 May 2007, 21:06:09
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', 'O')f course the planet will heal if we stop now
Okay, you won't believe me because apparently anything I say is automatically wrong. What about MoneQuest?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'M')y, but your ignorance on GW is showing. Even if we stopped burning all fossil fuels today, the earth will still increase in temperature. C02 has that effect longterm.
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic29467-0-asc-30.html$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', 'O')f course the planet changes all the time. And we humans will change with it. NOT the other way around.
Oh, so now you are saying that humans can't affect the environment? So you believe that climate change is just a scam, hmmm?
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Omnitir on Tue 29 May 2007, 21:26:22, edited 1 time in total.
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by Omnitir » Tue 29 May 2007, 21:14:54
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')You and I must be anti-technological earth-religionists (regardless of my computer science education and MS in sustainable agriculture)
Just as I must be a techno-geek kid who hates nature (regardless of being in my thirties and spending all of my spare time out enjoying the wilderness with lots of hiking and rockclimbing).
But you having an IT background doesn't prevent you from having an anti-technology bias, just as me spending much time in the wild does not prevent me from from having a pro-technology bias.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by Omnitir » Tue 29 May 2007, 21:16:33
Sorry UFCjunkie, but you haven’t given me any solid arguments to work with in your last post. It’s all mean spirited ad hominines which can’t be debated and will only lead to a flame war. I was trying to conduct a civil and intelligent discussion with you but you insist on trying to bring me down to your level. Is this representative of the average Luddite?
Please debunk my actually arguments, rather than merely calling me crazy and making petty references to science fiction.
There was however one point you made that I would like to refute:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', ' ')I did not speak about my self...I speak about the everyday growing problem of overweight kids and this crap food we eat. Not only fast food. Synthetic food, gene manipulated food, we are creating food that we aint used to.
The opposition to GM crops really irks me. You don’t want to eat it, than fine, but don’t stop much needed food aid to third world countries simply because you are afraid!
But this logic for being against GM crops makes no sense at all. We aren’t used to eating gene manipulated food? Rubbish! Humanity has been actively manipulating the genes of plants and animals for at least 10,000 years. Ever since agriculture began, we have been selecting the most desirable traits in plants and animals and breeding for those traits. It's called artificial selection. No species we consume today resembles what they originally looked like in nature. There is no such thing as “natural produce”.
This genetic modification process that humans have been involved with for around 10,000 years is merely being accelerated today with GM technologies. There is nothing about it that is any more ‘unnatural’ than selecting the best traits of a species to breed in further generations.
So if your reason for being against GM technology is because it’s unnatural and that we aren’t used to it, then you had better stop eating all food stuffs that are grown in any agricultural format, because they all use the exact same principle, merely at different speeds. Good luck with that.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Havent you turnd of the TV yet?
Look who’s talking, Mr Mad Max.
Plantagenet made a good point. If you think the hunter gatherer way of life is so ideal, and the modern world irks you so much, why exactly are you sitting here banging away on a keyboard when you could be living the hunter gatherer lifestyle right now? There are plenty of such lifestyles in the world, and if you were keen enough you could join one. So why don’t you? Is it that you can’t live without the technology that you so hate?
Anyway, there is no point in continuing any discussion with you about the technological future. You are so petty that not only do you not want any part of it, you aren’t even capable of contemplating what it could be like. Anything anyone says about this will just result in your compelling argument of “you just talking star trek you crazy”
Makes me wonder why you bothered posting here at all. Was it just to troll?
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by rsch20 » Tue 29 May 2007, 22:55:37
so lets see if I get the gist of the counter-arguments.
1. Back to Nature dude!
2. You suck!
3. Star Trek!
4. Cornucopians are stupid!
1 -> arguing for the hunter gatherer lifestyle, on an internet message board, is priceless. As has been noted if it's so great go live it. How do you suggest convincing the other 6 billion of us that it's great?
even assuming a die off, and only a few thousand remaining, how would you effect a 'stable' culture, that doesn't advance at all, or get eliminated, for millenia after your death? good luck on that.
our argument on the other hand, is (unless prevented by some limit) as inevitable as Peak Oil, we are just warning you about it,
2 -> ad hominem attacks merely show the weakness of your position.
3-> another ad hominem, much of the mischaracterization of our points suggests that we are saying 'don't worry, technology will fix everything'. I am in fact not saying that, I'm saying 'worry about technology too'.
If this theory is indeed preposterous, it will be apparent within 40 years max, and empirically provable, dismissing it out of hand with a star trek reference is not a counter-argument.
4 -> we aren't cornucopians, we see serious problems ahead, with a slight chance of a positive outcome. The issue we are outlining is itself a problem, of equal weight to PO. I am one of the most doomery doomers on this board, with the exception of recognizing that we may evolve out of this situation, or we may not.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pstarr', 'T')his has got to be most easily distracted and bought-off group of suckers on this site. Right here in one place. No problem. Just keep on shopping. The nanotechnologists will fix everything.
pure ad hominem and strawman, how about a real counter-argument?
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by rsch20 » Tue 29 May 2007, 23:07:59
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')There was however one point you made that I would like to refute:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', ' ')I did not speak about my self...I speak about the everyday growing problem of overweight kids and this crap food we eat. Not only fast food. Synthetic food, gene manipulated food, we are creating food that we aint used to.
The opposition to GM crops really irks me. You don’t want to eat it, than fine, but don’t stop much needed food aid to third world countries simply because you are afraid!
But this logic for being against GM crops makes no sense at all. We aren’t used to eating gene manipulated food? Rubbish! Humanity has been actively manipulating the genes of plants and animals for at least 10,000 years. Ever since agriculture began, we have been selecting the most desirable traits in plants and animals and breeding for those traits. It's called artificial selection. No species we consume today resembles what they originally looked like in nature. There is no such thing as “natural produce”.
This is why I started this thread, instead of just trying to explain a concept that people instinctively violently reject I get to have a little discourse as well =p
I agree that that is a bad argument, there is a good argument against GM crops though and that is the 'law of unintended consequences' thing, where the genetic tweaks escape out into nature and do things we didn't mean for, like creating more resistant bugs. Bacteria swap genetic material all the time so anything you try to plant large-scale is going to have effects on the nearby environment, and right now we are basically experimenting with our food supply.
Your counter-argument is also a bit of a strawman, it's true that we have been 'geneticially modifying' crops for a very long time, through artificial selection. However real genetic modification allows for changes that would (probably) never happen in nature or through artificial selection.
not crop related but the
Bunny-Humans are I believe relevant again. Plus I just love posting that link, it's representative of what we are talking about on a more visceral level.
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by Omnitir » Tue 29 May 2007, 23:56:04
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')4 -> we aren't cornucopians, we see serious problems ahead, with a slight chance of a positive outcome. The issue we are outlining is itself a problem, of equal weight to PO. I am one of the most doomery doomers on this board, with the exception of recognizing that we may evolve out of this situation, or we may not.
Indeed, I too am far from a true cornucopian. I see no possible way for the modern status quo to continue business as usual for much longer. I am 100% certain that we are heading for massive, unpleasant, upheaval.
I have also stated many times, that technology holds many dangers, and I believe there is a strong likelihood that we will suffer terribly at the hands of technology in the future. My beef with Luddites is that they ignore these dangers because they are too busy fantasising about doom, which greatly increases the chances of these disasters happening.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by Omnitir » Tue 29 May 2007, 23:57:34
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')There was however one point you made that I would like to refute:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', ' ')I did not speak about my self...I speak about the everyday growing problem of overweight kids and this crap food we eat. Not only fast food. Synthetic food, gene manipulated food, we are creating food that we aint used to.
The opposition to GM crops really irks me. You don’t want to eat it, than fine, but don’t stop much needed food aid to third world countries simply because you are afraid!
But this logic for being against GM crops makes no sense at all. We aren’t used to eating gene manipulated food? Rubbish! Humanity has been actively manipulating the genes of plants and animals for at least 10,000 years. Ever since agriculture began, we have been selecting the most desirable traits in plants and animals and breeding for those traits. It's called artificial selection. No species we consume today resembles what they originally looked like in nature. There is no such thing as “natural produce”.
I agree that that is a bad argument, there is a good argument against GM crops though and that is the 'law of unintended consequences' thing, where the genetic tweaks escape out into nature and do things we didn't mean for, like creating more resistant bugs. Bacteria swap genetic material all the time so anything you try to plant large-scale is going to have effects on the nearby environment, and right now we are basically experimenting with our food supply.
I agree that there are issues with GM crops. I would argue however that the law of unintended consequences is of minimal risk with GM technology, due to the high regulation. GM technology typically takes around a decade or scrutinizing before mainstream use is allowed. In many regards, you could argue that many GM crops are actually safer then conventional agriculture due to the rigorous standards we hold to them.
Given the potential of the technology to raise the SOL around the world, I consider it a very worthwhile technology to pursue. Of course, we do still need to be highly alert of such a technology and any unintended consequences. Terminator genes are an example of this efforts to stop unintended consequences, by making these crops (theoretically anyway) incapable of breeding in the wild. Unfortunately, many in the agriculture industry see terminator genes as control schemes that big business use to extort farmers.
This is what I consider the biggest problem with GM technology at the moment. We do need terminator genes to prevent unintended consequences, but we also need to make sure that the little guy isn’t crushed by being forced to adopt a new costly scheme. I think the answer is certainly not to remove controlling technology such as terminator genes, but rather to put in place some sort of GM fair trade watchdog.
But to simply be against all GM is very short sighted. Attempting to ban any technology outright is very short-sighted, and can only result in more trouble than if we carefully developed it in the first place.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Your counter-argument is also a bit of a strawman, it's true that we have been 'geneticially modifying' crops for a very long time, through artificial selection. However real genetic modification allows for changes that would (probably) never happen in nature or through artificial selection.
I’m not sure I entirely agree. Sure, these changes would probably never happen in nature. But then, genetic modification is basically doing what nature does, only billions of times faster. Instead of a species reproducing for millions of years until a random mutation comes along that happens to benefit the species, GM (in some cases anyway) forces many mutations within a short time span, greatly increasing the chance of a desirable mutation coming along. Of course fusing the cells of different species is an entirely different case, but ultimately current GM trends are merely another example of a technology path that has been smoothly and steadily accelerating since the dawn of humanity.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by rsch20 » Wed 30 May 2007, 00:14:05
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')I’m not sure I entirely agree. Sure, these changes would probably never happen in nature. But then, genetic modification is basically doing what nature does, only billions of times faster. Instead of a species reproducing for millions of years until a random mutation comes along that happens to benefit the species,
Well, I'm not arguing against GM crops, just pointing out a few things.
We recently created a new genetic base pair. this would never happen 'naturally'.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 033a0.htmlhttp://www.ffame.org/zyang/nar34.6095-6101.pdf$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nature.com', 'A') new Watson-Crick base pair, with a hydrogen bonding pattern different from that in the AdotT and GdotC base pairs, is incorporated into duplex DNA and RNA by DNA and RNA polymerases and expands the genetic alphabet from 4 to 6 letters. This expansion could lead to RNAs with greater diversity in functional groups and greater catalytic potential.
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by UFCjunkie » Wed 30 May 2007, 05:13:41
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', 'O')f course the planet will heal if we stop now
Okay, you won't believe me because apparently anything I say is automatically wrong. What about MoneQuest?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'M')y, but your ignorance on GW is showing. Even if we stopped burning all fossil fuels today, the earth will still increase in temperature. C02 has that effect longterm.
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic29467-0-asc-30.html It will get worse allright but I believe there will be parts of the world that will be able to survive and this places will cary further our race.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', 'O')f course the planet changes all the time. And we humans will change with it. NOT the other way around.
Oh, so now you are saying that humans can't affect the environment? So you believe that climate change is just a scam, hmmm?
Im not saying we CAN'T change it. I'm saying we are not SUPPOSE to change it, we are not gods. We do not have the intelligance to change this system to a better system.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '
')1. Back to Nature dude!
2. You suck!
3. Star Trek!
4. Cornucopians are stupid!
Sorry if I may sound harsh or hominem ( whatever that means, my english you know ) I come home tired from work and write so it can may be my worst that shows abit, but the point is the same, just in the wrong way. I will do my best to keep this discussion on a high level from now on.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rsch20', '1') -> arguing for the hunter gatherer lifestyle, on an internet message board, is priceless. As has been noted if it's so great go live it. How do you suggest convincing the other 6 billion of us that it's great?
Great point! I think this is the greatest thing of all. I don't need to convince anyone, not even my self! I believe we wont have a choice but to live the hunter and gathere life style again soon. There won't be another possibility to get a good life without being a hunter again.
WE WONT HAVE A CHOICE!
Without oil this society cant go on, dont need to convince anyone to be a hunter, those who wont go back they will die.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Havent you turnd of the TV yet?Look who’s talking, Mr Mad Max.
Was Mad Max a hunter and gatherer, cool! I believe the transition will look alot like Mad Max but not for long.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'I')f you think the hunter gatherer way of life is so ideal, and the modern world irks you so much, why exactly are you sitting here banging away on a keyboard when you could be living the hunter gatherer lifestyle right now?
Cause by the simple fact that the society is/has killed all the big animals and are using to much land for us to be able to do this. There was people who tried long before everyone finally was trapped in the modern society. I believe it will be the other way around soon, thanks to Peak Oil.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'I')s it that you can’t live without the technology that you so hate?
You've got me it must be it! That's why I can't wait for the Peak Oil effects to set place, the real effects that is.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'A')nyway, there is no point in continuing any discussion with you about the technological future. You are so petty that not only do you not want any part of it, you aren’t even capable of contemplating what it could be like. Anything anyone says about this will just result in your compelling argument of “you just talking star trek you crazy”
Sorry if Im being rude. But I think its madness to try to keep this society going in the same steps. It is so destructive that I can't see it as sane. If it's not sane it's insane right? How do you say insane in a better word than crazy? Insane? Is insane a better word, because it's what I mean, I don't mean something else I mean a mad and insane mind that believes in a fantasy that is driving us all to a certaint death. That's why I think it's insane, you believe in a fantasy that has never existed but in the minds of comicbook/book/movie wrighters. Thats where we all heard those hightech things first right?
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by Omnitir » Wed 30 May 2007, 08:59:55
Wow Pstarr, in a discussion on GM crops, you contribute this insightful and stunningly intelligent post:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mr 'I have an MS in sustainable agriculture'', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Captain Kick', 'B')eam me up Scottie
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Scottie', 'A')h cant captain.
The spooge has gummed up the transporter. There's a massive circle-jerk down here in the engine room.
You sir, are a credit to environmentalists the world over. I stand corrected. I hereby renounce all interest in technology and will dutifully ignore any danger it may present, as I tend to my garden and prep my bunker for when TSHTF. Thankyou for showing me the light in one swift and articulately argued post. I humbly bow before your obvious wisdom that can only exist with such a large post count.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by Omnitir » Wed 30 May 2007, 09:12:08
UFCjunkie, you seem sincere, not merely trolling for the fun of it like pstarr.
Please understand, my position is that there is much wrong with the modern world. I hate all the waste. Personally, I especially hate car culture. I cycle a lot and I use the electric trains. I would love nothing more than to see car culture die a horrible death, the economic ramifications be damned. Maybe that is why I'm not to worried by peak oil?
I don't know, but don't mistake me for someone vouching for the way the world currently works. There are so many problems and things could be so much better.
However, I also am a strong supporter of science. It is my belief that science is the only thing that makes life better. Unfortunately, most technology that science developed is used for destructive ends thanks to the current world culture.
The thing is, continued scientific and technological development has the potential to make the world a far better place. Of course, as technology is developed it is not always put to good use. For example, we have the technological means to developed a wonderful public transport system, but instead we promote car culture to keep the rich getting richer.
It is my belief though that eventually even the inertia of modern culture will not be able to stand up to the tidal wave of change that technology can force on the world. If one reads about what technologies are in the pipeline, it is had to argue that if they are developed they will not radically change the world for the better.
I may be pro-technology, but please don't assume that this means I approve of how technology is being used today. I am against car culture. I am against military culture. I am against environmental destruction. But I think there is a chance technology could end all of this. Unfortunately, it could also end all of us, but I don't see how not developing technology is an option.
We couldn't stop technology if we wanted to. So, I believe it is best to peruse it in an intelligent, and eyes open manner, in an effort to avoid the many pitfalls.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by Omnitir » Wed 30 May 2007, 09:14:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', ' ')It will get worse allright but I believe there will be parts of the world that will be able to survive and this places will cary further our race.
Not if it acts anything like the planets previous large Co2 buildups. They resulted in a runaway warming period, where the oceans stagnated and much life on the planet, certainly all the large lifeforms, perished. There are many sound arguments that we are seeing the beginning of such an event now. If that’s the case, the only chance we have is if we can find some way to reverse the process.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', ' ')Im not saying we CAN'T change it. I'm saying we are not suppose to change it, we are not gods. We do not have the intelligance to change this system to a better system.
This is such an important point. We are not intelligent enough. But the singularity, the result of technological progress if it remains exponential, will result in new orders of intelligence. This is the whole point being discussed here.
If the singularity happens, and we end up with greatly increasing the intelligence on the planet, such a super intelligence will be able to solve our problems. An intelligence that can think the equivalent of all of human thoughts throughout time, in only a fraction of a second, will surely be god like by our standards. Such an intelligence could solve climate change, the energy crisis, biodiversity issues, pollution clean up and how to feed all the hungry people of the world, all before morning tea. Who knows what such an intelligence will do with the rest of the day, let alone eternity.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')If you think the hunter gatherer way of life is so ideal, and the modern world irks you so much, why exactly are you sitting here banging away on a keyboard when you could be living the hunter gatherer lifestyle right now?
Cause by the simple fact that the society is/has killed all the big animals and are using to much land for us to be able to do this. There was people who tried long before everyone finally was trapped in the modern society. I believe it will be the other way around soon, thanks to Peak Oil.
But there are people living the hunter gatherer lifestyle right now. If you fully believe this is the future, and you are morally against technology, why don’t you go and live a hunter gatherer lifestyle right now? It is possible, so why wait to be forced into it if you are capable of it now?
Is it because deep down you don’t fully believe what you say? Does a part of you thinks that somehow things will be okay? I can’t think of any other reason.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', ' ')That's why I think it's insane, you believe in a fantasy that has never existed but in the minds of comicbook/book/movie wrighters. Thats where we all heard those hightech things first right?
Not at all. In fact, I can’t think of a single fictional comic (but I don’t read those anyway) book or movie concerning the singularity.
Can you explain how the concept of the singularity is a fantasy? Do you even understand the concept? You come across as sounding similar to these posters we see claiming that Hubbert’s peak is wrong, when clearly it is a logical conclusion. It is also a perfectly logical conclusion that the accelerating trend in technology, if it continues, will reach a mathematical singularity as a certain point this century. How can you possibly refute this? Crazy? Not believing it is crazy, just like believing that oil can never peak is crazy.
Of course technology may not follow it’s accelerating trend for much longer, and that’s a perfectly valid argument. But it is far from crazy to say that it is possible.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by Omnitir » Wed 30 May 2007, 18:51:08
There is a good
video with Barney Pell, the CEO of Powerset on the SIAI blog talking about AI and the singularity. He talks about why this stuff is so important. In one part he’s saying that often what happens is technology advances and we get a series of unexpected side effects of the technology. What the singularity institute is about, and why people should be aware of the singularity and related issues, is that we need to look ahead and try to be prepared for future technoogies.
These guys are designing AI and he makes a strong point: maybe we need to be looking at it’s future development and do everything we can to ensure that we design the right kind of AI instead of the wrong kind of AI.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barney Pell', '
')“The things we are talking about here almost enter the world of science fiction. The funny part is that things that were science fiction ten or twenty years ago have now become real.”
The blog also has a nice little
introduction to the singularity and explains the importance of efforts like the singularity institute:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eliezer Yudkowsky', 'I') would seriously argue that we are heading for the critical point of all human history. Modifying or improving the human brain, or building strong AI, is huge enough on its own. When you consider the intelligence explosion effect, the next few decades could determine the future of intelligent life.
So this is probably the single most important issue in the world. Right now, almost no one is paying serious attention.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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by UFCjunkie » Wed 30 May 2007, 18:55:21
Ok, we will get no further but I must say that I think we reached this point of technology thanks to oil, without oil we won't devolop more new techs we wont even be able to produce materia for the experiments. Or what is yor plan with that? How are we going to keep the technology growt in a world without oil?
And the reason why I don't go stay with a tribe right now is because it's not that easy to get in touch with them and the most important reason is that I want to see what happen with the world the comming years and follow the process, so maybe I have a chance to move to a place where a think the odds are better, maybe the best thing is to stay put...I don't know yet, thats why I stay here for now. But believe me I realy would want to stay with an tribe, first I hope to se the collaps of this society. I would feel alot safer then when I know this treath is out of the way.
We can't convince eatchother and the only thing to do is wait and se what happens.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')If the singularity happens, and we end up with greatly increasing the intelligence on the planet, such a super intelligence will be able to solve our problems.
I believe that such intelligance would wipe out our race in one of the steps to solve this planets problems.
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