[eclipse]

So .... who's going to put up a few posters? There's 3 to choose from, and they are free.

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$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think you're confusing wealthy people with elites. The wealthy is the one who tries to buy his way out (still a vulgar) and the elite is the one that squashes you like a cockroach.

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$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'S')o .... who's going to put up a few posters? There's 3 to choose from, and they are free.

[eclipse]

OK, so you're a doomer and I'm fine with that.

But are there any $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'p')eakniks

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'O')K, so you're a doomer and I'm fine with that.

But are there any $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'p')eakniks

[eclipse]

What, so most people here read my Super-famine poster and think "Shhh, don't tell anyone because it's true" not "Hey, TELL EVERYONE so it WON'T be true!" ?

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'W')hat, so most people here read my Super-famine poster and think "Shhh, don't tell anyone because it's true" not "Hey, TELL EVERYONE so it WON'T be true!" ?

[SevenTen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peripato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'W')hat, so most people here read my Super-famine poster and think "Shhh, don't tell anyone because it's true" not "Hey, TELL EVERYONE so it WON'T be true!" ?

[eclipse]

I guess it all depends on where you are on the Peakniks, Doomers, and Collapse dial. I'm definitely a peaknik, and think that IF we get the word out early enough, we'll only suffer a "Great Depression" as we slowly adjust our cities and lifestyles to an electron economy. So I put up posters and tell people. I lend them movies. I originally set up and led Sydney Peak Oil, and some great people there arranged a presentation to the NSW Upper House minority parties in 2005. We helped run the Richard Heinberg and David Holmgren tour, and had 700 people on 2 separate nights in Sydney in 2006. Sadly, due to burnout, I must pull back from too much involvement in SPO and just concentrate on my posters.

Yet I'm still a peaknik... once a "war time" economy kicks in of emergency proportions, we can achieve a lot. I fully get that if peaknik campaigning is successful, then it could shake stock-market and business "confidence" and bring on a recession.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Thus, the real dilemma of coping peak oil, for a while at least, is really quite simple. If the government should lay out the full ramifications of peaking in hopes of rallying the people to make preparations, the most immediate consequence is likely to be serious economic setback triggered by an unambiguous announcement itself.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut the alternative is to blindly wander into the future without any backup plan bouncing around in political minds... and that's where peakniks come in.

[eclipse]

I reject that those are the only 2 options. It's too cliche.

All this conspiracy theory Marxist stuff about the "rich" makes me ill... don't rich people want to eat too? Aren't some of them parents and grandparents? No, awareness is the key, and an emergency big government redirection plan around renewables, rezoning, and rail (to just name 3).

Otherwise what the heck are we doing here, sitting around whining like a bunch of self-congratulatory Apocalyptic Outsiders?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]The extremists — Apocalyptic Outsiders
Unfortunately peak oil can attract some unusual types. This knowledge can take on a cult-like pathology. In many cults the extreme views of adherents has placed them outside of the mainstream. Because they feel alienated and judged by society, they return the favour and judge society. As such, extremist cult members like the Branch Davidians of Waco, Texas have been referred to as Apocalyptic Outsiders.

I have noticed the tendency for some extreme Doomers to even want to keep peak oil to themselves. This is not characteristic of all Doomers, please don't take offense if you hold little hope for civilization at the end of the oil age. I am speaking about a very specific mindset here. It seems that the Apocalyptic Outsider has too much of their identity caught up in their end of civilization belief system — to the point that if society did Powerdown successfully, these individuals would be saddened and disappointed. In other words, if civilization did not come crashing down after the peak, who would this person be?

The characteristics that mark the Apocalyptic Outsider are:

* a tendency to gloat smugly over the coming destruction of civilization.
* a judgmental attitude to the uninitiated (and even non-Doomer Peakniks are scolded for their inferior position.)
* a tendency to kick back and enjoy esoteric discussions over the end of civilization — rather than actually doing anything about it
* very harsh criticism of those who do try to mitigate peak oil
* can be obstructive, critical, destroy group moral, and is ultimately attention seeking.

The irony is that these Apocalyptic Outsiders often object to the term Doomer as derogatory, but are the very people that might make the term derogatory!
This navel gazing mindset can be a waste of time at meetings. Not only does little get achieved with this critical attitude present, but it stifles brainstorming and destroys activism. This version of the Doomer wants to fatalistically congratulate themselves for their clever perceptions rather than campaign, or even set up a Lifeboat as many other Doomers would.

I'll let Worldchanging sum up my response to this sort of thinking.

"But this sort of Worldending thinking is poisonous. Like so many other ego-apocalyptic fantasies, it plays off two toxic memes: the idea that collapse is a positive force, and the idea that people have no ecologically acceptable place on this planet. Better writers than me have explored why both of these ideas are insane. What isn't explored often enough, though, is the effect these ideas and their like have on our culture: they sap our will to do better.

Collapse and extinction scenarios stoke our resignation, and let us off the hook for taking the tough, hard steps we'll be called to take over the next century if we are to build a sustainable civilization. We can't build what we can't imagine, but there's a corollary as well: what we imagine has a way of deeply influencing us (or, as Montaigne put it, "A firm imagination often brings on the event.").

A culture full of engaged, creative optimists with visions of a bright green future will produce a very different world than a culture of jaded misanthropes waiting for the Planetary Melt-Down. Optimism is a political act, challenging as it does the primary defense of the status quo -- that change is impossible. It is also a creative one. Yet our culture is full of portrayals of the end, and almost completely empty of images and stories and plans that show today to be the beginning of a new era. That's dysfunctional.

We know that we can do profoundly better than we are, that indeed, there's no technical reason why we can't build a society whose impacts on the natural world are positive.

So, yes, it's interesting to read a story about how long it would take for our skyscrapers to fall into ruins -- but it'd be thrilling to read a story about what it would take for humanity to thrive on Earth forever."


(From Worldchanging: Thriving on earth forever.)

Apocalyptic Outsider effects on Campaigning: The Apocalyptic Outsider is so fanatical about their precious Malthusian nightmares, that their zeal makes them over react to a playful term. (The Doomer would love to see the best of civilization preserved and catastrophe prevented — but has little hope of that happening — and probably has a tongue-in-cheek appreciation of the term "Doomer".)

Your peak oil group leaders may have to discuss whether or not the Apocalyptic Outsiders should form their own social group. (IE: Leave your group!) It's harsh to have to spell this out, but peak oil awareness is too important to let this clouded and self-obsessed thinking interfere with meetings.

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$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut even Kunstler does not refer to a universal dieoff scenario.

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$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') reject that those are the only 2 options. It's too cliche.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')therwise what the heck are we doing here, sitting around whining like a bunch of self-congratulatory Apocalyptic Outsiders?

[eclipse]

Show me where I argued for exponential population growth?
I am a member of Sustainable Population Australia!

Just because I am for maintaining law and order and "civilization" does not mean I am pro-growth. Sorry. Try again. Watch the documentary "Crude Impact"... I'm all for the solutions they talk about, and a big one being "Tag, you're it".

In other words, instead of sitting around whining about why nothing can be done like a defeatist teenager trying to just enjoy the "vibe of the thing" a little longer, it's time to be an adult and get into some activism. Get political. Write letters. Call talkback radio. Join a re-localization group at Postcarbon, or 100 other things.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hether you accept it or not that's what's happening.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 'S')how me where I argued for exponential population growth?
I am a member of Sustainable Population Australia!

[eclipse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The things that you're proposing will only lead to more growth.

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The things that you're proposing will only lead to more growth.

[eclipse]

Have you even seen the movie?

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', ':')lol:

Have you even seen the movie?