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Suggestions For a Way Out

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby TreeFarmer » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 19:14:54

Compound interest can only work in an environment with compound growth. The negative growth of the current environment is the icing on the cake of this trainwreck economy.

Now that growth may be totally over, the compound interest game has to end.

TF
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby sjn » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 22:30:14

As I see it, this right here is the biggest problem:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '[')i]The world needs consumers...

We have otherwise intelligent, PO aware people, here on this site, who can't accept this paradigm is over. What hope is there we'll do anything, at all, to mitigate what we are facing?
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby sihmei » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 10:25:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'I') find it incredible the number of posters on this site who believe it's simply a matter of "fixing" the banking system and we'll be back to growth and all will be well!?! I'm at peakoil.com, right???


Very good post, I'm also shocked. The acceptance of peak oil clearly means there is no way out. The economy will never fully recover. If it does make some sort of recovery it will be a brief temporary one before it all comes crumbling down again.

One can't look at this financial and economic mess in isolation. It's just one part of our civilisation, a civilisation that is no longer viable and has no future, a civilisation that is now entering it's decline stages. Talk of a way out of our economic mess is really... bizzare.

Money is meaningless. It's 0s and 1s on a computer. Our world doesn't run on 0s and 1s on a bit of silicon, it runs on energy and resources and both are running out.

I really don't get the posts here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have otherwise intelligent, PO aware people, here on this site, who can't accept this paradigm is over. What hope is there we'll do anything, at all, to mitigate what we are facing?


Absolutely no hope at all. Perhaps something will happen after the ICBM's are launched.
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 12:00:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sihmei', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'I') find it incredible the number of posters on this site who believe it's simply a matter of "fixing" the banking system and we'll be back to growth and all will be well!?! I'm at peakoil.com, right???


Very good post, I'm also shocked. The acceptance of peak oil clearly means there is no way out. The economy will never fully recover. If it does make some sort of recovery it will be a brief temporary one before it all comes crumbling down again.

One can't look at this financial and economic mess in isolation. It's just one part of our civilisation, a civilisation that is no longer viable and has no future, a civilisation that is now entering it's decline stages. Talk of a way out of our economic mess is really... bizzare.

Money is meaningless. It's 0s and 1s on a computer. Our world doesn't run on 0s and 1s on a bit of silicon, it runs on energy and resources and both are running out.

I really don't get the posts here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have otherwise intelligent, PO aware people, here on this site, who can't accept this paradigm is over. What hope is there we'll do anything, at all, to mitigate what we are facing?


Absolutely no hope at all. Perhaps something will happen after the ICBM's are launched.


I Agree 100%. My post was about buying time not growth.
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby outcast » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 22:47:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', 'T')he problem with our economy is solvency. Banks are insolvent, financial institutions are insolvent, and more and more families are insolvent. Fix that problem and the rest will attend to itself.


With all due respect your solution only treats the symptom, not the disease. They have been attempting to make the banks solvent for six months by throwing cash at them and all it is doing is delaying the inevitible.



Well short term that is the way out, long term wall street needs to be kept on a much tighter leash than before.
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 04 Mar 2009, 23:56:24

sjn said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') find it incredible the number of posters on this site who believe it's simply a matter of "fixing" the banking system and we'll be back to growth and all will be well!?! I'm at peakoil.com, right???


Our old mistress is still living close at hand. Denial is in her name, and subversion is her game. To admit that we have reached the end of the fossil fuel age is an admission that this civilization has come to its end. That breaches everything we have ever learned about who and what we are. It challenges our principal deity, and leaves us helpless to justify the atrocities we have committed in its name. It leaves us dumb founded to explain why we have raped the planet that has cradled us.

When our lady of the night arrives with her tribute of silver pieces, we are terrified that we might find that they will not buy us even one additional tomorrow!



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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby Novus » Thu 05 Mar 2009, 01:30:02

You want a way out?

Out law Usury an abolish the current banking system. It is an out and out ponsi fraud because the banks create credit by giving out loans but DONT create the interest to pay back the loan. That means debtors has to go into MORE debt to roll over the interest. This physically can no longer continue because the entire finite world has been spoken for and mortgaged in some way. There is no way out of the debt because the debt exceeds the total value of everything on the Earth. The way out is the abolish the Banks and hang the Wall Street pig men.
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby Blacksmith » Thu 05 Mar 2009, 01:34:50

Let them fail. The strong and worthwild will survive.
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby outcast » Thu 05 Mar 2009, 04:18:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'L')et them fail. The strong and worthwild will survive.




Unfortunately that will also sink the rest of the economy much more so than it is already. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Re: Suggestions For a Way Out

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 05 Mar 2009, 08:06:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'L')et them fail. The strong and worthwild will survive.




Unfortunately that will also sink the rest of the economy much more so than it is already. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


The paradigm has to change anyhow, in North America in the 1600-1800 period the economy was based on cheap wood energy. As the wood started running out it shifted to cheap coal energy and that lasted from about 1800-1920. Then, even though coal was still abundant it was replaced by an even cheaper and more portable energy source, Petroleum. From 1920-2005 Petroleum was so cheap and so abundant that our entire civilization shifted to using it as our mainstay power source.

Now that petroleum is peaking we are shifting sources, in places where the forest returned a lot of people in rural places burn wood for winter heating. Coal never went away either, it is still here and still for the present abundant. People are so creative they are actually developing ways to directly use coal as a petroleum substitute, but all that means is coal will hit its peak sooner than it would in an abundant petroleum world. For right now coal is cheaper than petroleum so you can still gain financially from converting over, however as ever more petroleum has to be offset coal demand will rise rapidly until it too becomes too expensive to waste.

The waste from cheap wood, cheap coal and cheap petroleum is what made a disposable economy work. We went from an artisan culture where everything was built to last as long as possible to a disposable culture where 'planned obsolescence's actually became an acceptable way of life.

The only way out is the way back to quality over quantity. If it takes a month's pay to buy a chair you want that chair to be solid 20 years from now. If you buy a house only once in your lifetime you want that house to last until your grandkids inherit it.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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