[GHung]

Creatures of habit in an overly-complex society - Hard core change bamboozles middle-class mother....

This is as real as it gets. A friend of our daughter uses her smartphone for therapy and posts to Facebook because her supermarket rearranged the isles. Think folks like this are ready for the real clusterfuck?
(a little comic relief on a slow weekend )

Suburbs, north of Atlanta - consumer hell. Imagine dropping a peak-everything bomb on someone like this:

https://video-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvide ... e=571C5EDC

[onlooker]

I think this topic particularly pertains to the US where we have been so spoiled and with our innate sense of entitlement. But it can be also applicable to all fairly affluent areas around the world, as people live there almost completely reliant on the grid and a dependable energy source.

[Peak_Yeast]

Says "URL expired" to me

[Rod_Cloutier]

I also couldn't read the link. I was just at the local dollar store today to buy some batteries and a young heavily tattooed couple were discussing in hushed tones about 'How expensive everything was becoming'

Hyperinflation collapse, here it comes

[GHung]

The link works fine for me (using Firefox). I think Woe (Whoa?) Susanne is great, but definitely stressed by modern suburban life. My point is that folks like this take for granted, and are fully adapted to, dealing with complexities as they are. If rearranging the grocery store shelf throws her such a curve ball, how will she react when many of those shelves are bare, or her selection is greatly limited? How will a society, used to so many choices, indeed, spoiled by highly functional supply chains, cope when those supply chains break down? How will our rather extreme sense of entitlement clash with contraction?

[Newfie]

Some will adapt, many won't. Selection of the fittest.

Can't open your link but we went to a small country restaurant/bait shop this am for the breakfast buffet. A small deal. But some early 40ish guy and his wife come in. He's a very rotund fellow. When we left he was well into his second heaping plate of everything. How is he gonna cope?

Just walk through any urban core Walmart and ask How they gonna cope? Or just stand on a big city corner at 9:00am and look around at all the nice young successful folks in their natty clothes rushing around and ask How th gonna cope?

Hell I have no idea how I'm gonna cope. If it goes down quick it's gonna be ugly and a lot of latent traits will reemerge, nasty latent traits.

[Newfie]

That probably describes where we are at about now. I don think it goes very far into the future as we continue down the spiral.

At some point it will be more like Lagos or Bangaladesh.

And the they will be something different than they are today.

And so forth down the spiral as depletion sets in.

[onlooker]

True, I am starting to think that depletion combined with climate change effects and other economic factors will make the collapse proceed quite swiftly. We may wake up one day and yes we are suddenly like Bangladesh if not worse.

[ROCKMAN]

I wish the conversation would avoid generalizations. "Collapse" means whatever a person thinks it means...which makes it essentially meaningless. The quality of life in the future US will hinge on very few factors. The biggest being unemployment and the income levels of those still employed. And lastly the govt revenue stream which will be needed to deal with those first two factors. IMHO everything else assumes a minor role. Climate change will eventually impact many. But nothing on the order of a new accumulation of another 25 million unemployed or 200+ million earning significantly less then the previous generations. And with that the govt efforts to deal with those problems in the face of lower revenue brought on by those same conditions.

[GHung]

Rockman said; "I wish the conversation would avoid generalizations. "Collapse" means whatever a person thinks it means...which makes it essentially meaningless...."

Yeah, Rock, I generally use "contraction", especially when referring to the trend that I expect first-world economies are (or will be) on. I expect a gradual erosion of services, infrastructure, and availability of goods as contraction ensues. Of course, we'll 'rearrange the shelves' to try and maintain an air of abundance and prosperity.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'S')ome will adapt, many won't. Selection of the fittest.

Can't open your link but we went to a small country restaurant/bait shop this am for the breakfast buffet. A small deal. But some early 40ish guy and his wife come in. He's a very rotund fellow. When we left he was well into his second heaping plate of everything. How is he gonna cope?

Just walk through any urban core Walmart and ask How they gonna cope? Or just stand on a big city corner at 9:00am and look around at all the nice young successful folks in their natty clothes rushing around and ask How th gonna cope?

Hell I have no idea how I'm gonna cope. If it goes down quick it's gonna be ugly and a lot of latent traits will reemerge, nasty latent traits.

[Newfie]

Tanda,
No clue what you read in my post for I pretty much agree.


Rocman,
I agree that e definitions as fuzzy at best. That includes not only COLLAPSE but also the TIMELINE and DEPLETION.

I can see someone considering Earths waning ability to sink carbon as a depletion.

That said, over a 200 year time span I think your statements are very optimistic. No clue of your time span.

[GHung]

Tanada said; "While it might be stretching things to say the meek shall inherit the Earth, people who are somewhat humble and who work well with others will do a lot better than those who go around making other people angry at them all the time."

For years, Greer has used the example of Medieval Monks. They lived humble lifestyles, produced most of what they needed, didn't piss people off, made good beer, and didn't have much else anybody wanted..

[ROCKMAN]

Ghung - "...and didn't have much else anybody wanted." And therein exists the problem, eh? Despite the right wing dribble the victims of most thefts are not the wealthy but the relatively poor. So even if one has very little (even less than the “next guy”) it doesn’t mean they won’t have something taken by that next guy. Even in the last few hundred years we have countless examples of the strong (or at least stronger) taking from the weaker. Big examples: slavery and Native American people. But lots of smaller examples including many that are “legal”: eminent domain, foreclosures, social security, etc. Easy to support some of those efforts…if you’re on the receiving end.

As far as the police/govt protecting individuals in a future “contracted” economy how could one expect that to happen if it isn’t happening today? The honest police will clearly point out their primary duty is to solve crimes after they are committed…not stop them. Fear of punishment appears to have no positive effect on crime today as witnessed by our huge prison population.

One can cloak the reality in softer phrases such as “competition dynamics”, “income redistribution”, etc. But in the end it all means the same: those with the ability (legal or otherwise) will claim resources as they become less available to the masses. Which, when you look back over history, really isn’t a new dynamic but just a continuation of how mankind has dealt with most of it resource problems in the past.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut in the end it all means the same: those with the ability (legal or otherwise) will claim resources as they become less available to the masses. Which, when you look back over history, really isn’t a new dynamic but just a continuation of how mankind has dealt with most of it resource problems in the past.

[GHung]

Good points, Rock. Maybe we should send it to Greer. Good thing guns are relatively cheap these days. I know fairly poor folks who, in my area, usually have guns. At that point it becomes a risk vs benefits equation, eh? I expect it'll be the folks living on the golf course up the road that'll have to worry more than the poor farmer over the ridge, initially at least. They'll already be suffering terribly because their favorite brand of tea is no longer on the store shelves

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'S')ome will adapt, many won't. Selection of the fittest.

Can't open your link but we went to a small country restaurant/bait shop this am for the breakfast buffet. A small deal. But some early 40ish guy and his wife come in. He's a very rotund fellow. When we left he was well into his second heaping plate of everything. How is he gonna cope?

Just walk through any urban core Walmart and ask How they gonna cope? Or just stand on a big city corner at 9:00am and look around at all the nice young successful folks in their natty clothes rushing around and ask How th gonna cope?

Hell I have no idea how I'm gonna cope. If it goes down quick it's gonna be ugly and a lot of latent traits will reemerge, nasty latent traits.

[ROCKMAN]

Ghung - Just some simple facts: the vast majority of folks being killed are civilians killing civilians. We don't need to be judgmental and try to break it down by crook or victim. Last might a 16 yo girl in Houston stabbed her brother to death supposedly defending her mother from him. Again let's not worry about the details of what is or isn't justified: doesn't change the body count. And as bad as the stats might seem most folks are still going to die of "natural causes". But that’s today…we have a long way to go before such violence becomes the norm. But clearly the potential is there…just need enough “contraction” for the new norm to develop. LOL.