[miniTAX]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'T')he breaking point, I suspect, will be when the average citizen cannot afford whatever it takes to use the energy. (A car, perhaps. Or just the monthly power bill.) They will not want to pay taxes so rich people can still drive their limos. Even if they are hybrid limos.

[Leanan]

I don't think tax rates matter. Obviously, not everyone pays the highest tax rate.

I think the breaking point, at least here in the States, will come when people realize that things are never going to get better. That not only will they never be rich, their children will be poorer than they are, and their grandchildren poorer still. That's when the spit is really going to hit the fan.

[miniTAX]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') don't think tax rates matter. Obviously, not everyone pays the highest tax rate.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')Our only "success" has been to foul our own nest to the point we probably can't survive in it anymore. The hrace runs a big risk of not making it and taking the planet down with us. I wouldn't call that successful, I'd say we've been a project gone wrong and we'll be lucky to survive it.

[crapattack]

miniTAX:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')umans are a successful animal species because they excel in adaptation, not in grievances

[miniTAX]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'm')iniTAX:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')umans are a successful animal species because they excel in adaptation, not in grievances

[crapattack]

MiniTAX wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')orry not to be part of the "WE" you include me in. We sure must differ in adaptation abilities or grievances.

[miniTAX]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')Sorry to tell ya buddy, unless you're not Homo Sapiens Sapiens, then you're included with the rest of us advanced apes whether you like it or not. On the other hand, if you really are an alien and you really do think we haven't screwed up this planet royally, perhaps you can wave your magic laser beam and take care of our little global warming and oil supply problem for us.

[Leanan]

We already ate the apple. Look where it got us.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I') suppose we should try anything, but placing our trust in the our energy future in windmills seems like... well, simply jousting at windmills.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miniTAX', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '
')Sorry to tell ya buddy, unless you're not Homo Sapiens Sapiens, then you're included with the rest of us advanced apes whether you like it or not. On the other hand, if you really are an alien and you really do think we haven't screwed up this planet royally, perhaps you can wave your magic laser beam and take care of our little global warming and oil supply problem for us.

[Odin]

The problem with the doomers is that they seem to forget that the demand for fuel will go way down when the suburbs are abandoned and we go to a more compact settlement pattern. The only things that will absolutely require biodiesel, ethanol, and hydrogen for on a large scale is farm machinery, trucks for hauling things to and from train stations, a much reduced airline fleet, and as backup power for small ships when the wind isn't blowing (large ships could use both wind or nuclear).

[Ludi]

Yeah, trucks...

The problem with anti-doomers is they apparently don't think major changes to settlement, employment, transportation, infrastructure, etc are any kind of big deal. No big deal, change our entire way of life in a decade or so.

No problem.

[crapattack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he problem with anti-doomers is they apparently don't think major changes to settlement, employment, transportation, infrastructure, etc are any kind of big deal. No big deal, change our entire way of life in a decade or so.

No problem.

[AmericanEmpire]

What makes me a doomer is that even if we had a miraculous new energy source to replace oil with a different fuel source it'd take time to retrofit our entire industrial infrastructure to run on it. So we'd still be up shit creek.

Half the homes in the US burn natural gas. Most the cars and trucks run on gasoline and diesel fuel. You gonna change all that overnight? Don't thing so.

What most of us live and work in took a hundred years of oil burning to build up. It was built by and runs on oil. And we got tons of the oil infrastructure now. Will be totally usless without oil.

[miniTAX]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', '
')Half the homes in the US burn natural gas. Most the cars and trucks run on gasoline and diesel fuel. You gonna change all that overnight? Don't thing so.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miniTAX', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', '
')Half the homes in the US burn natural gas. Most the cars and trucks run on gasoline and diesel fuel. You gonna change all that overnight? Don't thing so.

[Leanan]

It's socioeconomic effects that worry me. Maybe it won't be a problem in other countries, but in this one...I just don't think we're going to adapt well to an economy where people are poorer and poorer every year. It's supposed to be the opposite, for us. And living in more compact settlements will only make it worse.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I')t's socioeconomic effects that worry me. Maybe it won't be a problem in other countries, but in this one...I just don't think we're going to adapt well to an economy where people are poorer and poorer every year. It's supposed to be the opposite, for us. And living in more compact settlements will only make it worse.

[miniTAX]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'W')ell Minitax, there is one thing Bush is right about. Like it or not this country will be consuming 75% less oil by 2029.