[Ibon]

Looking back on those years living in South Florida I always remember the heavy tropical rains that would raise the ground water to the surface and cause the palmetto bugs to scramble all over the place searching for high ground.

Reading through this thread awakened that memory.

[Pops]

You thinking about eating bugs Ibon?

LOL,

I think Monkey said it, but I'll say it differently maybe: it is all about location, but the catch is there is no ideal location except the one you are ideally suited to inhabit.

So that is the quandary, find the location that suits your skill set, your tool set, your mindset.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
') it is all about location, but the catch is there is no ideal location except the one you are ideally suited to inhabit.

So that is the quandary, find the location that suits your skill set, your tool set, your mindset.

[Newfie]

Yup, wow.

Not something I'm looking forward to.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')Not something I'm looking forward to.

[Pops]

I'd say we are not displaced from home as much as disconnected from the idea of home. A sweeping generality might be to say most of us who are not in our ancestral homes, are where we are because of a job - either our job, our spouse's or our parents..

People moved to those rust belt towns you mention Ibon to get a job when a job was the way out of the dead end drudgery of subsistence farming. That has been the overarching migration trend over the last 300 years, up out of the dirt onto the factory floor. It obviously has been a mostly positive move, otherwise people would move back.

But, if a transition is to be made the options aren't quite as clear cut. The one practical reason to move out of the city is to learn ahead of time how to survive a post collapse society. There are lots of subjective reasons to leave the city, but in this thread the reason is survival. But there is a huge opportunity cost to put all one's eggs in that basket. Unless a person has just the right set of circumstances and a real drive to "Live" in the country, beyond some vague dread of the future, it is probably a bridge too far.

Obviously retired and well off is one circumstance that merely takes the desire. Not really any need to learn anything, just hang out at homesteading.com and talk about your latest purchase, LOL.

Remote telecommuter is another group, I fit in here. I had some capital but had to continue working. I was almost too early because maintaining a connection was tough early on, but that is much better now. This is very doable now and easier all the time I'd think. But again, it is hard to not simply wind up with a hobby and a different set of possessions. Even if, like me, one has a set of rules, and the number one rule is "Don't Spend," owning a small plot provides unlimited excuses to do just that - Hey Its Prep!

The ideal group I'd say is young, idealistic, maybe with a little backing from parents but just a little. I talked to a few people like this when I had a blog. Actually we sold the farm to a young couple just out of the service. They had 2 or 3 kids and really were exactly like me, just a little younger when we moved, heads full of ideas; greenhouse, goat cheese, garden.
And family nearby.

The key is not to simply run away from the city, but to have a destination in mind - a plan. But also a clear idea of the opportunity cost.

[Newfie]

The problem I see with leaving the city is knowing where to go? What are you prepping for?

1. Slow decline and that there will be time for adjustment.
2. Fast crash, gangs wandering the streets, raiding stores.
3. Localized crash where other parts of the country can assist in maintaining law and order.

If it is to prep for 2 then I don't really know a homestead will help. Too many white too many guns. If it is for 1 or 3 then I think it makes more sense.

Of course there are other factors such as age, your partner, physical health, desire. At my age it really isn't a good option. And while I like guns I don't want to be around any shooting.

But the options soon become limited. Staying in the city has a whole different set of undesirable possibilities.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', ' ')a job was the way out of the dead end drudgery of subsistence farming. That has been the overarching migration trend over the last 300 years, up out of the dirt onto the factory floor. It obviously has been a mostly positive move, otherwise people would move back.

[Pops]

My wife made fried chicken last night. I had this big hunk of meat on my plate and asked what portion of the bird it was and she said it was a thigh! I didn't really believe her until I cut into it, I figured it had to be a breast or a half even, it was so large. I imagined I could see my fingernails growing from the hormones.
[Yeah I know, its genetics, not hormones]



Food is incredibly cheap because it is incredibly efficient. Just like broilers have been selected for the genes to grow 4-5 times the size in half the time as in the 50's, everything else in ag has progressed -just as everything in every other area.

I remember as a kid going with my sister to gather at a local egg ranch. It was probably 1968 and just as primitive as if it was 1868. Imagine, a long, low, hot, dusty, dirt-floored wooden building with nest boxes on either side with hens and litter everywhere. Now fast forward to 1998 and I'm doing work for the biggest egg producer on the west coast. I visit a ranch on a photo "shoot" expecting some version of that 1968 scene and am amazed to find the eggs are "never touched by human hands." They roll right out of the cages onto a conveyor that moves them through underground tunnels to the packing plant where they are washed, sorted and crated by machine - it takes maybe an hour from the layer to the cooler. (which is where the tag line comes from)

I really have no idea how low wages would have to go, how high transport and energy would have to go, how far demand would have to fall before it would make sense to go back to the 1850s version.

That is the conundrum, continually increasing wages and constant downward commodity price pressure has made ag incredibly efficiency has made humans almost unnecessary to the process. Saying folks will just go back to the farm is like saying they'll go back to the secretarial pool or the assembly line.

[Pops]

P.S. Here is a list of papers by Prof John Ikerd from MIZZO - an ag economist I've recommended many times.

[Lore]

Yeah, but how many people really know the taste of a home grown chicken in the pot? I remember my mother making real chicken broth from our own birds. Not that watered down stuff you buy now at the local grocery today. That was real chicken and dumpling soup!

Most people can't leave the city because they couldn't figure out how to get their chicken McNuggets.

All that efficiency just means tasteless, chemically saturated food and one more technological chink in the armor that holds up the mass of humanity. Our Tower of Babel gets ever higher and the foundation ever weaker.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'N')ot that watered down stuff ...

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'F')ood is incredibly cheap because it is incredibly efficient.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')That is the conundrum, continually increasing wages and constant downward commodity price pressure has made ag incredibly efficiency has made humans almost unnecessary to the process. Saying folks will just go back to the farm is like saying they'll go back to the secretarial pool or the assembly line.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'A')ll that efficiency just means tasteless, chemically saturated food

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'C')ities are largely chicken coops for excess humanity.

[Ibon]

Pops, you post got me to thinking. We are dependent on this efficient industrial agriculture model as it provides the basics to feed 7 billion plus. That means that constraining resources will be prioritized to keep this agricultural system intact since it will be the discretionary segments of the economy which will suffer first. For this reason modern industrial agriculture will remain resilient through this century. Which really creates a challenge for agrarian alternative living arrangements.

This example of agriculture can be applied to other aspects of our modern life. You want a construction example analogous to agriculture. Look at this video of a hotel going up in China in 360 hours
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwvmru5JmXk

How far can we stretch depleting resources to extend the status quo with continued efficiency gains?

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I')'m thinking future generations will be forced to manual alternatives. The question is will you be better in the city to turn to them or not?
..
That should comfort no one living on the fifth floor of some apartment complex.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')hich really creates a challenge for agrarian alternative living arrangements.
..How far can we stretch depleting resources to extend the status quo with continued efficiency gains?

[Revi]

I live in a small town, but even small towns are beset with problems nowadays. There are lots of drug addicts wandering the streets and we have even had a couple of muggings. They just busted 2 heroin dealers within a half mile of me, so there are problems now even in places that are outside of big cities. We are going to be left with a hollowed out shell of rusting small towns, abandoned farms and destroyed people. Some people see opportunity in rural areas, and our local farmer's market has breathed new life into rural areas close to this town. All of the farmers are young, and they are having kids, so it's not all bad around here. Living in an area like this is no picnic, and we are planning on moving away for retirement. We have a tree farm, and a maple sugar house, and it has been a struggle, but we are keeping it going. I think of it as good practice for what's coming, but I am afraid that there is not going to be any way of defending a remote agricultural operation once it gets worse. We already have taken many steps to harden it. Cameras help, but you can't always count on them. In short, I don't know if there is a place to run to in a rural area that is actually going to work.