http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBUGAWEF4E.html
I seem to recall that 50,000,000 people died in WWII. (A hell of a lot of Russians, Madpaddy, sure, we all know that and not many Irish eh? Who's side was the IRA on, I forget?) Those on the Allied side fought to stop a fascist dictatorship intent on racial dominance and purification. In 1944, what with D-Day, Montecasino etc and the war in full life or death mode EVEN IF THEY HAD SOME VAGUE INTELLIGENCE about the 'Final Solution' I doubt that winning the war could have been anything other than the number one priority and that was the only sure fire way of gutting the Nazis to bring a stop to it. The war was touch and go, even at that stage. To claim the Allies would have done nothing to stop the Holocaust is as disgusting and foul as claiming that the Jews were ignorant and stupid to go along for the train ride. People had no conception of the horror and it's hard to get one's mind around it even today.
BUT THE WHOLE BLOODY WAR WAS WAGED AGAINST FASCISM.
If there is a lesson to be drawn from the Nazis it is surely that we have to guard and protect democracy and liberal society from those who would seek to destroy it to promote ideological or religious limits to our freedoms and that we must not stoop to fascism to do so. Racial/religious land grabbing, gerrymandering and total disrespect for the lives of other races/religions solely to protect one's own is what caused the Holocaust in the first place.
And what's the Sharon undercurrent here? Hey, USA, if you don't bomb Iran we will? Hey, GW, control that nutter before he blows the place apart.
PeakOil is You
Sharon - draws the wrong lesson
Re: Sharon - draws the wrong lesson
by Chuck » Wed 26 Jan 2005, 08:59:28
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('K9P', 'T')hose on the Allied side fought to stop a fascist dictatorship intent on racial dominance and purification..........
BUT THE WHOLE BLOODY WAR WAS WAGED AGAINST FASCISM.
BUT THE WHOLE BLOODY WAR WAS WAGED AGAINST FASCISM.
IF IT IS WRITTEN IN CAPITALS, THAN IT MUST BE TRUE.
(but it is only your view)
The government will think of something
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Chuck - Peat
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by Chuck » Wed 26 Jan 2005, 09:56:11
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('K9P', 'C')huck - BUM POINT. 
K9P I do not know what you mean. I'm not an American so I have to use my dictionary to look for "bum" and then still don't get it.
My point is this; maybe this whole "war against fascism" is just a myth, as I think it is. People in Eastern Europe for example (as far as I know) don't buy this western myth.
The government will think of something
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Chuck - Peat
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by Madpaddy » Wed 26 Jan 2005, 12:05:06
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') seem to recall that 50,000,000 people died in WWII. (A hell of a lot of Russians, Madpaddy, sure, we all know that and not many Irish eh? Who's side was the IRA on, I forget?) Those on the Allied side fought to stop a fascist dictatorship intent on racial dominance and purification.
I'm sure you had a point mentioning me in this post but the reason for it escapes me. Why anybody expects that Irishmen would die in ww11 for the British empire is beyond me. At the outbreak of war the horrors of the holocaust were not known to anybody as you stated. The US only entered the war after pearl harbour and Germany declared war on the US if my history serves me correctly. What useful contribution Ireland could have made except to raise the morale of the allies is also questionable. Yes we could provide cannon fodder which we did anyway. Estimates of Irish soldiers serving in the British army during ww11 is over 100,000.
The Irish Government executed dozens of IRA men during ww11 in order to preserve neutrality and avoid giving the allies any reason to invade. If Northern Ireland had not been in British hands and therefore able to provide bases to protect the atlantic convoys you can be assured the allied would have invaded.
If the Germans had invaded Ireland, Churchill had plans to gas the country using squadrons of mosquito bombers based in Wales. This would have been to deny lifestock etc. to the Germans. This would have caused up to 80,000 civilian deaths. Don't forget history is always written by the victors.
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by K9P » Wed 26 Jan 2005, 12:07:12
Chuck - I'm not American either. It means bad point ( obviously not a gay expression).
But now I see what you mean, WWII had a variety of causes - sure. But the driver for the Germans was provided by unity behind the fascist myths of purity etc. Without fascism the war would have been just another empire expanding, resource hunting contest. Facism created a new ideological motivation and brought with it a whole new set of strategies and tactics revolving around racial considerations. Obtaining resources was secondary to the ideological drivers.
Fascism, with its notions of rascist purity was the enemy. Forget the Dutch behaviour if you like but see how the Danes reacted against the round-up of the Jews. It was clear what was at stake - but not the extent of the Nazi insanity. Sharon insults us all with this trash.
But now I see what you mean, WWII had a variety of causes - sure. But the driver for the Germans was provided by unity behind the fascist myths of purity etc. Without fascism the war would have been just another empire expanding, resource hunting contest. Facism created a new ideological motivation and brought with it a whole new set of strategies and tactics revolving around racial considerations. Obtaining resources was secondary to the ideological drivers.
Fascism, with its notions of rascist purity was the enemy. Forget the Dutch behaviour if you like but see how the Danes reacted against the round-up of the Jews. It was clear what was at stake - but not the extent of the Nazi insanity. Sharon insults us all with this trash.
- K9P
by K9P » Wed 26 Jan 2005, 12:36:03
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', '[')I'm sure you had a point mentioning me in this post but the reason for it escapes me. .
I was simply mirroring / pulling your ultra-sensitive leg by reminding you of a telling and informed point you made elsewhere - that you considered the Russians won WWII.
As to this empire stuff, Poland was not part of it, neither was France, Belgium, Lux... and the rest of Europe. Perhaps the Irish might have considered fighting for the other Europeans who had been invaded? Or fighting fascism itself?
Fascism, with it's racist overtones, was despised by many and Hitler's views were hardly secret. Mein Kampf was when - 1936? But the depth of his vileness was not conceivable and certainly the extent was not known until the Russians exposed it. There are nasty tales that more was known about it than the public were told at the time.
The USA was in the war long before Pearl Harbour provided the formal excuse. They were sinking U boats and supplying most of the food and munitions. Some even argue they allowed the attack to provide the excuse.
Churchill was hardly a saint. Gassing sheep - Irish blarney, an idea considered and dismissed or solid planned fact? If aerial gassing had a hope of working I feel sure Churchill would have dosed Berlin with it early on. Experienced from WWI, he would have known how haphazard such an approach was. Churchill bombed the crap out of Dresden for no justifiable reason ( mass murder for revenge is no excuse) he didn't think twice about sinking the French fleet and killing 2000 French sailors either.
War stinks. Far better if you can find some other suckers to fight them for you.
- K9P
