Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Scavenging Begins

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Scavenging Begins

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 05:35:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('From the LA times', 'T')rying to solve a more tangible problem, lawmakers moved to crack down on rampant metal theft.
The rising value of aluminum, bronze, copper and other metals has spurred thieves to yank wiring from buildings and air-conditioning units, steal manhole covers and irrigation pumps and destroy statues and fire hydrants. After being sold for quick cash, the metal is often sold again.
Efforts to curb such theft last year failed. This year lawmakers agreed on a measure that would require scrap dealers to get photographs, thumbprints and addresses of sellers and to pay them by check with a three-day delay.

The CA State Legislators, still unable to come up with a Budget, did mangae to pass a bill designed to curb the theft and resale of basic metals to junkyards for scrap value. Raise your hands here if you think these new Laws will work to curb the thefts! :-)

Clearly an underground economy is already beginning to develop in the scrap metal market. Trying to track this stuf isn't like tracking TVs with Serial Numbers or Cars with VIN numbers stamped on the engine. Pretty hard to prove where a bunch of copper wire came from.

With all the houses being abandoned, any piping, wiring and gutters are up for grabs when nobody is home watching the house. So now the Government will try to track the sales through the transactions, including Fingerprinting and Photos.

So OK, Junk Dealer Prints and Pics some Dude who comes in with a roll of copper wire. IRS collects this in a Database, tries to locate said seller somewhere in Los Angeles. Brave sort that he is, he ventures into the Barrio to question Carlos on how he got hold of this copper wire:

IRS Agent: So Carlos, how did you get all this wire?
Carlos: I won it in a Poker Game man.
IRS Agent: Who did you win it from Carlos?
Carlos: I won it from Pepe with a Full House
IRS Agent: Where can I find Pepe? Did you get his Prints and his Pic?

This has to be the dumbest charade EVER far as trying to control an underground economy. If this stuff has value, its going to be scavenged and stolen, and the worse off people get, the more of it you will see happenning. Our overbuilt housing stock looks to be disassembled rapidly here.
Reverse Engineer
User avatar
ReverseEngineer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Wed 16 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby killJOY » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 06:26:16

Our 1940s John Deere manure spreader is now worth more in scrap than what we paid for it or what we could get for it. We paid $100 fifteen or so years ago for the piece. It's a cruddy little gem, ground-driven, and has hauled hundreds of tons of crap.

We could get at least $500 for it now for scrap. I hope it lasts, because we won't be able to afford to buy another at this rate.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
User avatar
killJOY
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2220
Joined: Mon 21 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: ^NNE^

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 07:12:27

I know a guy who goes around to pick up heavy stuff left out after yard sales to sell for scrap.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'O')ur 1940s John Deere manure spreader is now worth more in scrap than what we paid for it

Just thinking, I wonder how much of an impact scrap prices will have on the antiques market. that's going to make it harder to find deals on old working equipment if a lot of it's just going to be scrapped. It sounds like high prices will thin out a lot of heavy low interest items, raise security costs and ultimately prices.
User avatar
steam_cannon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2859
Joined: Thu 28 Dec 2006, 04:00:00
Location: MA

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby frankthetank » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 07:43:29

My buddy, the policeman, told me a couple of stories in the past 2 weeks.

One was a couple of guys who took a bunch of aluminum from a workplace (they didn't work at) and when questioned said they had permission. The boss said no they didn't. The workers said they didn't. Hard to prove what happened so i think he was going to get them to give the money to the boss...although unsure. He could have charged them.

Second was just a few days ago. A huge apartment is being painted? so they pulled the siding off (not to throw it) and had it sitting in the yard covered with cloth. It was gone by the next day. Didn't find the siding yet.

Went on to tell me that its a huge problem even here.
lawns should be outlawed.
User avatar
frankthetank
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6202
Joined: Thu 16 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Southwest WI

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby StuckInPhilly » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 09:06:25

We had traffic stopped the other day for a stolen manhole cover. My understanding is that it's becoming a rather common problem in other areas, too.

It's hard for me to imagine a manhole cover as being worth the effort to haul that heavy puppy up, but I guess it is now.
StuckInPhilly
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu 24 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 09:16:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'I') hope it lasts, because we won't be able to afford to buy another at this rate.

This is a really good statement on PO. The point when we can no longer afford to replace our infrastructure. I looks like that day has arrived!
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 09:58:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'I')t's hard for me to imagine a manhole cover as being worth the effort to haul that heavy puppy up, but I guess it is now.

Well your typical manhole cover is about 100 lb of iron. Scrap iron goes for around $0.40/lb. 2 guys with a van in a large city could conceiveably grab 30 covers in 1 night.

100 * 0.4 * 30 = $1200. Divide that between the 2 guys and that's $600 for 1 night's work. They would have to move a felony weight of meth to come close to that figure.

IMO, copper makes a better target though. The volume you need to steal is far smaller, and it doesn't usually come with something incriminating like "City of Portland" stamped on it. Plus it's a lot easier to disguise your activities by spraypainting "Joe's Contracting" on the side of your van.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 10:02:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'I')RS Agent: So Carlos, how did you get all this wire?
Carlos: I won it in a Poker Game man.
IRS Agent: Who did you win it from Carlos?
Carlos: I won it from Pepe with a Full House
IRS Agent: Where can I find Pepe? Did you get his Prints and his Pic?

Yeah. OK. But if Carlos shows up with a truck load of manhole covers, it'd be nice to be able to get in touch with him. There were a bunch of people stealing guard rails out in rural Washington. It really shouldn't be that hard to figure out who brought 30,000 pounds of guard rail into the scrap yard the next week. Out in Montana, some guys were stealing ground wires from electrical substations. For $200 worth of wire they did $20,000 worth of damage to the station. If somebody shows up at the scrap yard the next week with the right kind and amount of copper ground wire, the cops ought to be going out to chat with them. It's the same way that the cops check pawn shops for stolen goods. Not that things don't get through, but it's worth making some effort.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby TheDude » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 14:31:02

Also becoming a target: Solar panels are hot for the stealing - Inside Bay Area
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey turn the sun's rays into usable electricity, with proponents calling it an environmentally friendly alternative that saves money on utilities. But the growing number of solar panels being installed on roofs of government buildings, private businesses and homes are becoming a hot commodity in a way many say they didn't expect.

East Bay law enforcement has been seeing a number of solar panel thefts. One industry expert said it was an uncommon crime, but there was a brief spree of thefts six weeks ago throughout the Bay Area. "The solar panel thing is pretty new," said Contra Costa County Sherriff's Office spokesman Jimmy Lee of the thefts. "We're seeing an increasing number of cases."

In July, a sheriff's deputy found a Pittsburg man with solar panels stolen from the Pleasanton school district over the summer. In that case, 39 two-foot-by-four-foot solar panels worth about $800 each were stolen from Hearst Elementary school in mid-June shortly after the end of the school year, said school district spokeswoman Myla Grasso.

She said it's unknown when the theft happened or if the panels were taken at different times. Employees learned of it after finding parts left on the ground. "We were surprised," Grasso said. She said the district has had wire and other theft from school sites, but had not expected someone would get on the roof and steal the panels.

Remember when this was the sort of scenario you'd only hear about from the "Peak Oil lunatic fringe"? :x People really need slaps upside the head, this is only common sense: High value item + criminals = potential for theft.
Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
And let me tell you something: I dig your work.
User avatar
TheDude
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4896
Joined: Thu 06 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby StuckInPhilly » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 15:20:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'I')t's hard for me to imagine a manhole cover as being worth the effort to haul that heavy puppy up, but I guess it is now.
Well your typical manhole cover is about 100 lb of iron. Scrap iron goes for around $0.40/lb. 2 guys with a van in a large city could conceiveably grab 30 covers in 1 night.
100 * 0.4 * 30 = $1200. Divide that between the 2 guys and that's $600 for 1 night's work. They would have to move a felony weight of meth to come close to that figure.
IMO, copper makes a better target though. The volume you need to steal is far smaller, and it doesn't usually come with something incriminating like "City of Portland" stamped on it. Plus it's a lot easier to disguise your activities by spraypainting "Joe's Contracting" on the side of your van.

Thanks for doing the hard work. That is some decent money.
As I recall copper has been taking a beating from scroungers for several years now, so no big surprise there.

Several months ago I predicted the solar panel theft (not hard to predict, of course) but I thought it would take a few years before that activity kicked in. As time goes on, there will be more and more scrap shops not wanting to ask the "tough" questions, me thinks.
StuckInPhilly
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu 24 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby strider3700 » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 15:49:44

In the woods behind my house there are 3 trucks and 1 canopy that I know of that where dumped probably 20+ years ago. the aluminum off of the canopy is definitely worth taking the time to recover.

The 3 trucks are probably worth about $1000 in scrap maybe more( I have no idea how much steel there is in an early 60's suburban) The only question is it worth taking the time to cut up the big pieces to haul out of there or not. Stuff like the doors and hood can just be tossed into the trailer and taken back.

A few years back there was a thread about garbage dump mining. A lot of "garbage" out there will be recovered.
shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
strider3700
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2865
Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby Roy » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 16:14:49

:)
Last edited by Roy on Sun 12 Oct 2008, 10:23:38, edited 1 time in total.
Roy
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri 18 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Getting in touch with my Inner Redneck

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby yesplease » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 16:24:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'R')emember when this was the sort of scenario you'd only hear about from the "Peak Oil lunatic fringe"? :x People really need slaps upside the head, this is only common sense: High value item + criminals = potential for theft.
That's because this ain't nothing new. They started asking for ID and recording names/addresses a few years ago IIRC. Cut scrap prices in half and it's still decent cash. It's just relatively common now since there are quite a few people who used to work installing this stuff now sitting around twiddling their thumbs w/ no jobs and of course junkies w/ reciprocating saws.

Same thing happened w/ gas thefts. Going from $2.50 to $3.50 doesn't make siphoning a tank of gas profitable all of a sudden, but it was enough to spur a rash of thefts. Draining a 10-20g tank is still profitable at $2.50/gallon considering it only takes maybe five or ten minutes, but a $.50-1 increase spurs an increase in thefts because it brings attention to it, and as it's cracked down on people migrate away from it again.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 17:47:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', 'I')n the woods behind my house there are 3 trucks and 1 canopy that I know of that where dumped probably 20+ years ago. the aluminum off of the canopy is definitely worth taking the time to recover.
The 3 trucks are probably worth about $1000 in scrap maybe more( I have no idea how much steel there is in an early 60's suburban) The only question is it worth taking the time to cut up the big pieces to haul out of there or not. Stuff like the doors and hood can just be tossed into the trailer and taken back.

Here's a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation:

1965 GMC Suburban (depending on whether it came with the 350 CID engine, or 4 wheel drive) weighs in at around 4000 lbs. The engine alone weighs in at about 400 lbs of mostly iron. So that's about $160 for the engine.

That leaves about 3600 lbs of material, which in the mid-60s would have been around 70% steel. At the current price of about $414/ton, you're looking at around $500 for the rest of the vehicle. Plus there's the copper in the wiring harnesses and any specific parts that might be worth salvaging seperately and reselling as spare parts. That works out to about $1500 worth of scrap sitting on your back-40.

BUT

If you're serious about it, you will have to put in a lot more work than just carving it up with a torch. You will need to strip the vehicles and seperate them into their constituent materials, drain any remaining fluids, and of course have someone you trust who knows cars to help you pick through the parts for individual resale. Depending on accessability and condition of the scrap, you could easily find yourself investing more man-hours in the salvaging than the material is worth.

Best bet is to sell the engine blocks and wiring harnesses to a salvager, then sell the husks to a junkyard for whatever you can get.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby katnipkid » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 18:28:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('steam_cannon', 'I') know a guy who goes around to pick up heavy stuff left out after yard sales to sell for scrap.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'O')ur 1940s John Deere manure spreader is now worth more in scrap than what we paid for it

Just thinking, I wonder how much of an impact scrap prices will have on the antiques market. that's going to make it harder to find deals on old working equipment if a lot of it's just going to be scrapped. It sounds like high prices will thin out a lot of heavy low interest items, raise security costs and ultimately prices.

Yes, this has had quite an effect on the antiques/collectibles market. At the local antiques/flea market, ANYTHING made of copper or brass is long gone. Doesn't matter how old or what it is. When folks are "browsing", esp. if it is metal trays, they want to know what metal is under the silver, if the vendor has any brass bric-a-brac cheap(yeah, right newbie, its already been recycled). Some will say, away from the market, that they cruise the market for metal things they can get more for recycling. Needless to say, lots of stuff is now melted down.
User avatar
katnipkid
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed 30 May 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 18:31:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'W')ell your typical manhole cover is about 100 lb of iron. Scrap iron goes for around $0.40/lb.

The wholesale price of processed scrap is $.40/lb, but I don't think scrap yards are paying anywhere near that to retail customers. I dropped off an old wood stove maybe three years ago at a scrap yard. It was 400 pounds and I got $6 or $8 or something like that. This page quotes iron as paying between $0.01 and $0.04/lb: link
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 18:46:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SPG', 'T')his page quotes iron as paying between $0.01 and $0.04/lb:

The scrap people in this area are telling me they are getting about $.07-.08 for clean iron. I doubt that it is $.01, I don't think that would pay for the gas to cut it up.
Copper seems to have fallen though. From $3.20 to about $2.40.
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA
Top

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby strider3700 » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 19:07:10

If I remember correctly they where offering $120/tonne last time I was out there.
shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
strider3700
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2865
Joined: Sun 17 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby Ferretlover » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 20:18:46

IMHO, it doesn't matter what the resource-raw or manufactured-is;
If they see it (and/or can reach it), [s]they[/s] thieves will come and [s]get [/s]steal it.
There have always been thieves-the only thing that has changed is what they steal now. As the population numbers go up, so will the thefts.
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
Ferretlover
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 5852
Joined: Wed 13 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Hundreds of miles further inland

Re: Scavenging Begins

Unread postby Revi » Tue 02 Sep 2008, 21:10:54

Cast Iron is the new precious metal. The price of everything went up, and now has settled a lot. I know people who sold an old bus without a transmission or motor. They got over 2000 bucks for it!

An old F-150 was going for almost $500. Think about it, what could you get for some of these old gas hogs? Maybe they are worth more as scrap than as used trucks!
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
User avatar
Revi
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7417
Joined: Mon 25 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Maine

Next

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron