hmmm
Jesus is comming....
Look busy.
PeakOil is You
Reality or illusion? and the plot thickens
by aldente » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 16:02:08
I understand that Art Bell is not a reference for solid scientific reviews hence my mentioning that it is written in a entertaining style.
The underlaying topic though is real and ocean currents can chance - with sudden and massive implications on the equilibrium of earths climate.
I haven't seen "the Day after Tomorrow" since the preview was such a turnoff and guess it didn't help the matter either since the issue is now just another Hollywood fiction.
The only other reference that I can think of is Dale Allen Pfeifer
And I assume that most members on this forum did their part of reading and are aware of the subject matter.
The underlaying topic though is real and ocean currents can chance - with sudden and massive implications on the equilibrium of earths climate.
I haven't seen "the Day after Tomorrow" since the preview was such a turnoff and guess it didn't help the matter either since the issue is now just another Hollywood fiction.
The only other reference that I can think of is Dale Allen Pfeifer
And I assume that most members on this forum did their part of reading and are aware of the subject matter.
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by keiraw » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 16:16:07
Hi
I need people who know a good amount about economics, law or politics and anyone else who sees through lies, as I see a few people posting in this thread do.
email: keiraw2121@yahoo.com
I need people who know a good amount about economics, law or politics and anyone else who sees through lies, as I see a few people posting in this thread do.
email: keiraw2121@yahoo.com
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by Eli » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 16:31:25
Albente
you did not miss anything by not seeing "The day after tomorrow"
It is terrible, the science in it breaks the known laws of physics and it absolutely moronic in all of it's Hollywood shlocky-ness. As if instant catastrophic climate change isn't scary enough there is a wolf chase scene.
it is awful bad.
you did not miss anything by not seeing "The day after tomorrow"
It is terrible, the science in it breaks the known laws of physics and it absolutely moronic in all of it's Hollywood shlocky-ness. As if instant catastrophic climate change isn't scary enough there is a wolf chase scene.
it is awful bad.-
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by Free » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 16:41:50
Did you ever try to keep a secret even only between 3 people? Did you ever try to control even just a horde of little kids? If somebody ever manages to put up a secret society which can manipulate world population they deserve to rule...
There is no such thing as control, even if it looks like it. Pure chaos which looks like a pattern. Nature. Energy. Entropy.
There is no such thing as control, even if it looks like it. Pure chaos which looks like a pattern. Nature. Energy. Entropy.
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by Eli » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 17:09:05
Redjake
I give you that as well the special effects are definatly great. It is just a little over the top for my tastes. It is definitely made with the philosophy of more is more which Hollywood seems to fancy.
I do not know Free Hitler had an awful lot of control and power in Nazi Germany.
I guess I just lost the argument I am the first one to bring up the Nazis and Hitler.
Thats a rule the first one to bring up the Nazis looses.
I give you that as well the special effects are definatly great. It is just a little over the top for my tastes. It is definitely made with the philosophy of more is more which Hollywood seems to fancy.
I do not know Free Hitler had an awful lot of control and power in Nazi Germany.
I guess I just lost the argument I am the first one to bring up the Nazis and Hitler.
Thats a rule the first one to bring up the Nazis looses.
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by turmoil » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 17:14:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('keiraw', 'H')i
I need people who know a good amount about economics, law or politics and anyone else who sees through lies, as I see a few people posting in this thread do.
email: keiraw2121@yahoo.com
I need people who know a good amount about economics, law or politics and anyone else who sees through lies, as I see a few people posting in this thread do.
email: keiraw2121@yahoo.com
which lies? religion?
"If you are a real seeker after truth, it's necessary that at least once in your life you doubt all things as far as possible"-Rene Descartes
"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes
"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes
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by Free » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 17:33:42
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', '
')
I do not know Free Hitler had an awful lot of control and power in Nazi Germany.
I guess I just lost the argument I am the first one to bring up the Nazis and Hitler.
Thats a rule the first one to bring up the Nazis looses.
')
I do not know Free Hitler had an awful lot of control and power in Nazi Germany.
I guess I just lost the argument I am the first one to bring up the Nazis and Hitler.
Thats a rule the first one to bring up the Nazis looses.
Lol, yes indeed you have lost it but not because of Goodwins law...
I have only waited for the Nazi example because this is a common misunderstanding: An evil genius takes over a whole nation, turns all people into zombies and killermachines.... please!
Do you really think they would have let somebody lead them if they didn't want it? I like to use the analogy of a steam car which was under high pressure. It just waited for somebody to sit into the drivers seat and unleash all this energy. Germany was the emerging power in the world since the late 19th century, it brought whole Europe out of a carefully made power balance and had to lead into conflict with the established powers.
Of course the way it unfolded was tragic, and it didn't have to end like that, but in some ways there would always have been something like the 2nd world war, because although they lost the first world war there was still no balance. Germany still had plenty of potential, it was the leading nation in science and technology, had a huge and educated population, and not the place in the world it thought it deserved. Of course Hitler used Germany, but Germany used Hitler just as much. Hitler was the cristallisation, the expression of Germanys collective will of radicalized, embittered quest of revenge and power.
That is not a question of guilt - because of course it doesn't mean the majority of the German population wanted KZs, the destruction of Europe and Russia, and mass murder. It's just the way it played out, a historical process.
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by Badger » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 17:49:20
hitler was apparently financed in part by Standard Oil, Prescot Bush, GW Bush's gran pappy, Harriman brothers and quite a few others of so called respectable standing unfortunatly for the money making plans as with the old guard prussian generals they couldnt quite keep him on the leash. hitler also was about securing other peoples resources..
Standard OIL and some of them were done for light weight treason slap on the hand stuff...
Standard OIL and some of them were done for light weight treason slap on the hand stuff...
Freedom is a elusive concept.
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by Eli » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 17:50:02
Free I will give you that as well.
Hitler was in power because he was able to tell his audience what they wanted to hear. But as a leader he did have a power that was almost seductive.
He would keep his audience waiting then when he finally took the podium he would stand and not speak for an additional 5 minutes. I mean thousands of people are waiting to hear him speak and he would just stand there. Then he would start softly and then finally work up to the screaming and fist waving.
But that is how you get in power by telling people what they want to hear. But by doing that you can get lots o power.
Hitler was in power because he was able to tell his audience what they wanted to hear. But as a leader he did have a power that was almost seductive.
He would keep his audience waiting then when he finally took the podium he would stand and not speak for an additional 5 minutes. I mean thousands of people are waiting to hear him speak and he would just stand there. Then he would start softly and then finally work up to the screaming and fist waving.
But that is how you get in power by telling people what they want to hear. But by doing that you can get lots o power.
Last edited by Eli on Thu 21 Jul 2005, 19:36:33, edited 1 time in total.
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by Free » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 17:57:12
Hm, but where is the power if you can tell the people just what they want to hear???
Now if Hitler for example could have just told them: Listen, from now on we introduce a Hippie cult, drugs, sex and rock and roll, everybody has to grow long hairs and not work more than 2 hours a day, now that would have been power!!! Flower power!
Now if Hitler for example could have just told them: Listen, from now on we introduce a Hippie cult, drugs, sex and rock and roll, everybody has to grow long hairs and not work more than 2 hours a day, now that would have been power!!! Flower power!
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by Eli » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 19:12:07
Free I get where you are coming from but it took power and influence to murder 6 million Jews, gypsies and homosexuals.
He did not make hippies but he did manage to make one of the worst murderous cults the world has ever seen. I guess the scary thing is you can get an awful lot of otherwise normal people to march men, women and children into ovens.
So I guess the point is it is easier to turn people into death squads than it is into hippies. Frankly I would rather be a hippie.
I mean they called him Der Fuhrer after all. And he did tell the people what they wanted to hear and in exchange for that he did whatever the hell he wanted to, and hell is what he wanted too. Thats the power making the rules and leading people where you want to go.
He did not make hippies but he did manage to make one of the worst murderous cults the world has ever seen. I guess the scary thing is you can get an awful lot of otherwise normal people to march men, women and children into ovens.
So I guess the point is it is easier to turn people into death squads than it is into hippies. Frankly I would rather be a hippie.
I mean they called him Der Fuhrer after all. And he did tell the people what they wanted to hear and in exchange for that he did whatever the hell he wanted to, and hell is what he wanted too. Thats the power making the rules and leading people where you want to go.
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by PenultimateManStanding » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 19:35:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', ' ')a power that was almost seductive.
He would keep his audience waiting then when he finally took the podium he would stand and not speak for an additional 5 minutes. I mean thousands of people are waiting to here him speak and he would just stand there. Then he would start softly and then finally work up to the screaming and fist waving.
Someone described the effect of Hitler's speeches as an incitement to murderous rage. It was a hypnotic trance he induced, a psychotic spell to proselytize the Nazi Commandment: Thou Shalt Kill! The fact that a politician in the 'Modern Era' could use techniques like this with such success is still to this day a major conditioning factor in politics everywhere. All the politicians speak in soft tones as though the ghost of Hitler was standing in the wings.He would keep his audience waiting then when he finally took the podium he would stand and not speak for an additional 5 minutes. I mean thousands of people are waiting to here him speak and he would just stand there. Then he would start softly and then finally work up to the screaming and fist waving.
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by Free » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 19:55:45
Yes of course most of us would prefer to be hippies than members of a death cult, but Germany as a whole at that time didn't. That whole thing was born out of fear, fear of being crushed from the outside and the inside, the fear of being weak and to degenerate, and from the urge to be powerful, strong, disciplined and to fight to defend themselves.
But I see that's not what you wanted to say. You say somebody sneaks into power by telling the masses what they want to hear, seducing them, and THEN controlling, abusing/using this power which he has gained in the first place.
Let's define power as achieving that somebody does what you want.
Yes Hitler had that power, because the Germans did exactly what he wanted. But why? Because they wanted it too, what he wanted, at least initially! And after the war gained momentum there was no way of stopping it anyway.
What I want to say is: It was a symbiosis, not a master/slave constellation. Hitler identified with the german people, and he thought it was his destiny to lead it to glory, while the german people thought he was the right leader at the right time.
So yes Hitler could have gained power by lying to them and telling them what they did want to hear, but what would have happened after he would have tried to implement some secret agenda which the German people wouldn't have liked? Let's say after he was empowered he said: "You know what, the Versailles treaty isn't such a bad idea, let's just pay reparations and not bother." He surely would have lost power immediately.
The point I want to make is: You only can keep control as long as people tolerate it, no matter how much you told them before the things they wanted to hear to get the power in the first place.
But I see that's not what you wanted to say. You say somebody sneaks into power by telling the masses what they want to hear, seducing them, and THEN controlling, abusing/using this power which he has gained in the first place.
Let's define power as achieving that somebody does what you want.
Yes Hitler had that power, because the Germans did exactly what he wanted. But why? Because they wanted it too, what he wanted, at least initially! And after the war gained momentum there was no way of stopping it anyway.
What I want to say is: It was a symbiosis, not a master/slave constellation. Hitler identified with the german people, and he thought it was his destiny to lead it to glory, while the german people thought he was the right leader at the right time.
So yes Hitler could have gained power by lying to them and telling them what they did want to hear, but what would have happened after he would have tried to implement some secret agenda which the German people wouldn't have liked? Let's say after he was empowered he said: "You know what, the Versailles treaty isn't such a bad idea, let's just pay reparations and not bother." He surely would have lost power immediately.
The point I want to make is: You only can keep control as long as people tolerate it, no matter how much you told them before the things they wanted to hear to get the power in the first place.
Last edited by Free on Thu 21 Jul 2005, 20:14:36, edited 1 time in total.
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by PenultimateManStanding » Thu 21 Jul 2005, 20:08:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 's')topping it anyway.
The point I want to make is: You are only can keep control as long as people tolerate it, no matter how much you told them before the things they wanted to hear to get the power in the first place.
There is an element in a population which will always be available for a strong tyrant to mobilize and use for State Terror to silence and intimidate opponents. Once you have a grip on absolute power, the toleration issue becomes moot. The only thing a Hitler or a Stalin needs to fear is the ambitions of those high up in the Party, hence The Night Of The Long Knives and the show trials in Moscow in the 30s. The people are supine and helpless and do what they are told. People talk about Martial Law here in the US and the Patriot Act as though it was evidence that we are in a Police State. Well it isn't here yet, and god help us if it ever is.The point I want to make is: You are only can keep control as long as people tolerate it, no matter how much you told them before the things they wanted to hear to get the power in the first place.
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