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Re: Another Oil price Record

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zahl » Sun 06 Jan 2008, 14:57:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', 'T')he author of this blog is tracking global net oil exports.


Their latest image sums up the situation nicely. This recent downturn lasted just 1.5 years and was not as big in volume as the huge 2001-2002 drop. The most important point to draw from that graph though is that the slump is over and net exports have increased pretty dramatically over the last few months.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 15:16:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zahl', 'T')heir latest image sums up the situation nicely. This recent downturn lasted just 1.5 years and was not as big in volume as the huge 2001-2002 drop. The most important point to draw from that graph though is that the slump is over and net exports have increased pretty dramatically over the last few months.


Thats not what I am seeing at all. On the bloggers charts it appears that if you look back a bit Exports coincide quite nicely with the may 05 crude peak which still stands currently. On most of those charts I see a DECREASE in the recent months for exports. Where do you see an increase?

The recent decrease may or not be tied to the peak in 05, but it sure looks related to me. One of the larger problems we may have tracking this for the near future is that you dont have a way to account for whehter or not storage is being used to maintain exports from some of the large producers. This has been suggested by some folks here recently. I see it as a way to prolong the status quo and keep some stability in the market for a while longer.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zahl » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 17:14:42

Their latest (December 14, 2007) graph and spreadsheet of "Net Oil Exports of Top 20" shows a huge 1.3 Mb/d increase between June 2007 and November 2007. According to that graph and spreadsheet, net exports of top 20 exporters hit a low of 39.8 Mb/d in June 2007, but had increased to 41.1 Mb/d in November 2007.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 17:35:10

We are still well below the max historically. Your seeing things that are not there. Its noise about the trend, volatility along the peak/plateau. No real hard data other than a few months of uptick, and still well below the max back in 05. You need a lot more data points before you go assuming all is well.

More typical cornucopia.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zahl » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 18:10:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'W')e are still well below the max historically. Your seeing things that are not there. Its noise about the trend, volatility along the peak/plateau. No real hard data other than a few months of uptick, and still well below the max back in 05. You need a lot more data points before you go assuming all is well.

More typical cornucopia.


Well, net exports from top 20 exporters peaked at 42.344 mb/d in December 2005 according to the charts that blogger put up, then went on to decline 2.574 mb/d over the next 18 months. Now we have seen 52% of that slump erased in just five months. At this rate that 2.574 mb/d drop will be completely erased in less than six months and U.S. inventories start to go up again. Anyway, we'll see what happens.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby PeakingAroundtheCorner » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 19:24:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zahl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'W')e are still well below the max historically. Your seeing things that are not there. Its noise about the trend, volatility along the peak/plateau. No real hard data other than a few months of uptick, and still well below the max back in 05. You need a lot more data points before you go assuming all is well.

More typical cornucopia.


Well, net exports from top 20 exporters peaked at 42.344 mb/d in December 2005 according to the charts that blogger put up, then went on to decline 2.574 mb/d over the next 18 months. Now we have seen 52% of that slump erased in just five months. At this rate that 2.574 mb/d drop will be completely erased in less than six months and U.S. inventories start to go up again. Anyway, we'll see what happens.


Hey, Zahl, I wonder if you'll do us the pleasure of going to the Welcome forum and introducing yourself, tell us a little about you.

After all, you come in here like you own the place and right from your first post you've been expending alot of energy attempting to knock down our platform here so the least you could do is tell us who the hell you are and how you come to know exactly what to say to rebut our positions.

It almost seems as if you are here on a specific agenda. If I am wrong, oh well, it's just how you come off.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 23:01:23

Two words.

Export Land


Lets talk in about two years or so.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Revi » Mon 07 Jan 2008, 23:10:12

We're back down to $95 a barrel, so everything is hunky dory again. I noticed that they reported a little sabre rattling in the straights of Hormuz, so it will probably go back up again now.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Tue 08 Jan 2008, 12:36:55

This is for Mr Zahl........

Export picture not so rosy
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby FireJack » Tue 08 Jan 2008, 13:28:03

Zahl can still argue because depletion hasn't become significant yet. As far as im concerned the huge and sudden declines in the cantrel and north sea oil fields spell out our future, nitpick all you want about a million barrels here or there all you want. If people like Zahl want to think in 20 years world production is going to be 100 million barrels a day who cares, just ignore him and he'll go away.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby SchroedingersCat » Tue 08 Jan 2008, 16:51:04

Jeffrey Brown and Samuel Foucher have finally posted their piece on the top 5 oil exporters over at graphoilogy:

A Quantitative Assessment of Future Net Oil Exports by the Top Five Net Oil Exporters.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zardoz » Fri 11 Jan 2008, 18:09:50

"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zahl » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 10:22:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'T')his is for Mr Zahl........

Export picture not so rosy


As the authors of that piece point out, they are only telling you half the story. They also cherry pick two of the greatest net export declines in UK and Indonesia that have lost a combined 2 Mb/d since 1999 (the peak year of UK net exports), but fail to mention that since 1999 Algeria, Angola and Kazakhstan have seen a combined net export rise of that same 2 Mb/d. They then wrap it up with a dubious assertion that as far as the total production of Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran and UAE goes, they are all now in a permanent decline. But according to the latest EIA production figures

Image

that is not true. Their production is rock stable or slightly trending upwards. UAE brought back 100% of their capacity in December from maintenance.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zahl » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 10:27:17

EIA has just released their production statistics for October 2007:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/ipm/supply.html

October set the new all time high world supply record of 85.605 Mb/d.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zardoz » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 12:27:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zahl', 'T')heir production is rock stable or slightly trending upwards...

...for now, precisely as we would expect it to be on the "undulating plateau" of the peak of global oil production, with the price stubbornly staying above ninety dollars a barrel.

It's looking more and more like those who've been predicting a long plateau and slow decline (*stuggles to wipe the smug smirk off his face*) are going to turn out to be correct. The cliff is out there, but we have a long way to go to reach it, and it won't be the sheer drop so many think it will be.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 14:15:50

I think there is something really important to glean from all of this. You can pick and choose numbers and data which "fit" your premise and we all agree that things right now may look like a plateau.

What I tend to base my own take on is the rest of the story.

The reality is that things are obviously and measurably getting very much more difficult with regard to this whole game. Your EIA numbers(and anyone else's for that matter) are suspect. As Matthew Simmons has been pointing out for quite some time, we just dont really know what is going on in several of the bigger OPEC producers. We need far better data in order to know what is really going on.

It is evident, If your willing to admit it, that Suadi reserves look to be extremely suspect, along with other large producers. I don't think you can show any confidence there. I also am not convinced that Saudi production wont crash in a short period of time due to the water problems. You have to admit that this is possible on some level. Their field histories are not what you would consider being in their infancy.

Places like the North Sea and Mexico appear to be validating the export land model put forth recently and the price signals cant be ignored in light of supply.

To me, it is obvious we are STRUGGLING MIGHTILY to hold this production at current levels and it still remains to be seen that in the near term production can continue to rise along with projected demand. I try to look at the bigger picture and where we need to be in a few years and it doesn't appear to me that we are on a trajectory which is positive. The larger production curve is telling you something if you step back and look at the longer term.

Even if the plateau can last 10 years, which I doubt, we still have significant problems, both economic and social which arise if we continue business as usual.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Armageddon » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 14:28:20

I have a feeling the longer the plateau, the steeper the cliff is going to be due to the methods they are using. When you are puming 1 mbpd of salt water just to maintain , you are asking for trouble.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Bas » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 14:58:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zahl', 'E')IA has just released their production statistics for October 2007:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/ipm/supply.html

October set the new all time high world supply record of 85.605 Mb/d.


I think continued high prices is putting quite some production back online that wasn't economical at $70. For example they put a field which stopped production 10 years ago back in service about 50km from where I live. Actually it's the biggest onshore oilfield in western Europe (schoonebeek). Unfortunately I can't find the daily production numbers right now....



My point though. Pretty soon all production of oil in any meaningful quantities that had become uneconomical before will be put back into production and then it won't matter much if the price reaches $200; there won't be any "uneconomical" fields left to be put back into production...

Edit: the plan is to pump another 100 to 120 million barrels from this field in the next 25 years so that equals 11k bbl to 13k bbl/day
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Valdemar » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 15:11:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zahl', 'T')heir production is rock stable or slightly trending upwards...

...for now, precisely as we would expect it to be on the "undulating plateau" of the peak of global oil production, with the price stubbornly staying above ninety dollars a barrel.

It's looking more and more like those who've been predicting a long plateau and slow decline (*stuggles to wipe the smug smirk off his face*) are going to turn out to be correct. The cliff is out there, but we have a long way to go to reach it, and it won't be the sheer drop so many think it will be.


What good is a plateaux with increasing demand? The economy will stagnate, as it is doing now, and then nosedive. And given we're nowhere near making up for even 2008's forecasts, how can you say this will be a nice slow decline to boot? If I could see a fairly lax industry currently keeping this rate going because they have their eyes on other things or are simply playing the field to see how prices and demand go, then I'd agree. But since we're trying our damnedest to pull off a Red Queen, I don't see how your smug future is going to transpire without a lot of shit just generally breaking down.

And we all know that prolonging a plateaux means the cliff is most assuredly not a gentle slope if you're struggling right now to maintain the status quo.
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Re: Another Record

Unread postby Zahl » Sat 12 Jan 2008, 19:27:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'Y')our EIA numbers(and anyone else's for that matter) are suspect. As Matthew Simmons has been pointing out for quite some time, we just dont really know what is going on in several of the bigger OPEC producers. We need far better data in order to know what is really going on.


That is Matthew Simmons' excuse to save his credibility as the years pass by and there is no twilight in the desert. You are not going to convince anybody not already in the choir with that argument.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') also am not convinced that Saudi production wont crash in a short period of time due to the water problems. You have to admit that this is possible on some level.


Anything is possible on some level. But there is no evidence that it is happening now. One thing to keep in mind is that Saudi Aramco has never failed to meet the target level they have publicly announced in advance. Not once.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')laces like the North Sea and Mexico appear to be validating the export land model put forth recently and the price signals cant be ignored in light of supply.
Any particular cases won't validate the export land model as it is not supposed to be a model of particular cases. This model would gain credibility if it showed quantitatively that new net exporters like Algeria, Angola and Kazakhstan that offset 100% of the UK and Indonesia net export decline are not rising up any longer. But absolutely no quantitative argument is made that this would be the case. Instead, we have still new countries like Azerbaijan, Equatorial Guinea, Sudan and Chad that export virtually their entire output and that output is growing by the year quite rapidly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o me, it is obvious we are STRUGGLING MIGHTILY to hold this production at current levels and it still remains to be seen that in the near term production can continue to rise along with projected demand. I try to look at the bigger picture and where we need to be in a few years and it doesn't appear to me that we are on a trajectory which is positive. The larger production curve is telling you something if you step back and look at the longer term.


Here is that larger production curve:

Image

Click here for a larger version. This data comes from the latest (Jan 2008) EIA Short Term Energy Outlook and it gives the historic picture up to Q4/2007 and predictions for the near future. World oil supply is predicted to rise to 89 Mb/d in Q4/2008. It also says that the plateau ended in Q4/2007 and is now trending strongly upwards. We'll see what happens.
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