[Yamaha_R6]

First I would like that fistfull of dollars Matt said he would bet that I went out and bought that book, because I didn't.

I have nothing against lawers in generall, just the ones that use fear to exploit people. But then again I dont like anyone who uses fear to exploit people.

So, judging by everyones responses, most of you agree with what I wrote in my first post, because nobody really tried to foil my main argument.
I really want to make sure everyone knows what my main argument is.

IT IS: "The rate at which gas becomes more expensive will determine how severly our economy is hurt, the time we have to transition to a non oil energy source is more important then the actuall change itself."

I think it is appearent that it is possible to have a very modern energy filled lifestyle and use very little if any gas at all. Other countries are doing it, so america can too. It just takes time, time to make a whole new energy system, time to adjust to a new energy conserving lifestyle, time to re-work our basic infrustructure to make this possible.

My stance is that that die off will occur in 3rd world countires, but not in first world ones. 3rd world countires, even if given time, cannot adjust. Parts of their population can't even survive as it is, even with cheap oil.

However 1st world countries can get by given time to tansition. We can afford alternatives, we have the ability to produce alternatives. The question is can we implement them in time.


I SAY YES. WE CAN.

A lot of you, and Matt, say no, we cant, because gas prices will rise to sharply causing society to collapse before we have enough time to adapt.


THIS IS THE INFORMATION WE ALL SHOULD BE ASKING.

How much does gas have to increase in price to collapse society, and once past peak, how fast will prices rise?

I dont think prices will rise fast enough to collapse society, cause a huge reccesion??? maybe. But people in america starving, not possible.

Everyone on here gives proof to the fact that peak oil is real, and that there is no short term substitute for oil. But nobody has any convincing arguments that we even need a shorterm solution to oil. We have the time to implement long term solutions.

Everyone ASS U ME S that price is going to just sky rocket, I dont see why we wont see a gradual incease of many many years. As the price goes up, our dependency on oil will go down as we will slowly switch to alternatives and start conserving a lot more.

Gas isnt going to just triple in price one day. And even if it did, 6 dollars a gallon gas isnt that expensive. Not expensive at all considering coffee at starbucks is 4 dollars and in some other countires it already cost that much.

[Ben]

Honestly I think debates about dieoff or no are pretty pointless. Looking at the data it's not inconceivable that things could work out not bad at all, and looking at human nature it's not inconceivable that it could end in a thermonuclear war. No one really knows how it will turn out in the long run.

Personally, I don't like what I see as the "best case scenario"-type thinking on behalf of the Soft Landers. Seems like their whole argument is basically "a 3% decline per year isn't catastrophic if people just act smart." Makes sense to me, but I'm not betting any money on people acting smart any time soon.

[Sencha]

Four things:

1) We'll never find a viable alternative energy source.

2) We'll never find enough oil to use in providing the switch over to that energy.

3) Switching over to that energy in order to preserve our current quality of life would require a massive undertaking the likes of which the world has never known.

4) We'll never go through with that massive undertaking because we're humans. 'Nuff said.

The world is ending: "Deal with reality, or reality will deal with you." aiight?

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think it is appearent that it is possible to have a very modern energy filled lifestyle and use very little if any gas at all.

[Pops]

“Everyone ASS U ME S that price is going to just sky rocket…
Gas isnt going to just triple in price one day.”



Perhaps you could tell us the basis for your assumption that it won’t.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow much does gas have to increase in price to collapse society, and once past peak, how fast will prices rise?
I dont think prices will rise fast enough to collapse society, cause a huge reccesion???

[Falconoffury]

The gas prices shot up pretty suddenly in the 70s. Also remember that it's not just about price. The price can be low, but it won't help if 3/4 of the gas stations shut down, and people have to wait 3 hours in line to fill up their tanks.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yamaha_R6', 'F')irst I would like that fistfull of dollars Matt said he would bet that I went out and bought that book, because I didn't.

I have nothing against lawers in generall, just the ones that use fear to exploit people. But then again I dont like anyone who uses fear to exploit people.

So, judging by everyones responses, most of you agree with what I wrote in my first post, because nobody really tried to foil my main argument.
I really want to make sure everyone knows what my main argument is.

IT IS: "The rate at which gas becomes more expensive will determine how severly our economy is hurt, the time we have to transition to a non oil energy source is more important then the actuall change itself."

I think it is appearent that it is possible to have a very modern energy filled lifestyle and use very little if any gas at all. Other countries are doing it, so america can too. It just takes time, time to make a whole new energy system, time to adjust to a new energy conserving lifestyle, time to re-work our basic infrustructure to make this possible.

My stance is that that die off will occur in 3rd world countires, but not in first world ones. 3rd world countires, even if given time, cannot adjust. Parts of their population can't even survive as it is, even with cheap oil.

However 1st world countries can get by given time to tansition. We can afford alternatives, we have the ability to produce alternatives. The question is can we implement them in time.


I SAY YES. WE CAN.

A lot of you, and Matt, say no, we cant, because gas prices will rise to sharply causing society to collapse before we have enough time to adapt.


THIS IS THE INFORMATION WE ALL SHOULD BE ASKING.

How much does gas have to increase in price to collapse society, and once past peak, how fast will prices rise?

I dont think prices will rise fast enough to collapse society, cause a huge reccesion??? maybe. But people in america starving, not possible.

Everyone on here gives proof to the fact that peak oil is real, and that there is no short term substitute for oil. But nobody has any convincing arguments that we even need a shorterm solution to oil. We have the time to implement long term solutions.

Everyone ASS U ME S that price is going to just sky rocket, I dont see why we wont see a gradual incease of many many years. As the price goes up, our dependency on oil will go down as we will slowly switch to alternatives and start conserving a lot more.

Gas isnt going to just triple in price one day. And even if it did, 6 dollars a gallon gas isnt that expensive. Not expensive at all considering coffee at starbucks is 4 dollars and in some other countires it already cost that much.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yamaha_R6', 'F')irst I would like that fistfull of dollars Matt said he would bet that I went out and bought that book, because I didn't.

I have nothing against lawers in generall, just the ones that use fear to exploit people. But then again I dont like anyone who uses fear to exploit people.

So, judging by everyones responses, most of you agree with what I wrote in my first post, because nobody really tried to foil my main argument.
I really want to make sure everyone knows what my main argument is.

IT IS: "The rate at which gas becomes more expensive will determine how severly our economy is hurt, the time we have to transition to a non oil energy source is more important then the actuall change itself."

I think it is appearent that it is possible to have a very modern energy filled lifestyle and use very little if any gas at all. Other countries are doing it, so america can too. It just takes time, time to make a whole new energy system, time to adjust to a new energy conserving lifestyle, time to re-work our basic infrustructure to make this possible.

My stance is that that die off will occur in 3rd world countires, but not in first world ones. 3rd world countires, even if given time, cannot adjust. Parts of their population can't even survive as it is, even with cheap oil.

However 1st world countries can get by given time to tansition. We can afford alternatives, we have the ability to produce alternatives. The question is can we implement them in time.


I SAY YES. WE CAN.

A lot of you, and Matt, say no, we cant, because gas prices will rise to sharply causing society to collapse before we have enough time to adapt.


THIS IS THE INFORMATION WE ALL SHOULD BE ASKING.

How much does gas have to increase in price to collapse society, and once past peak, how fast will prices rise?

I dont think prices will rise fast enough to collapse society, cause a huge reccesion??? maybe. But people in america starving, not possible.

Everyone on here gives proof to the fact that peak oil is real, and that there is no short term substitute for oil. But nobody has any convincing arguments that we even need a shorterm solution to oil. We have the time to implement long term solutions.

Everyone ASS U ME S that price is going to just sky rocket, I dont see why we wont see a gradual incease of many many years. As the price goes up, our dependency on oil will go down as we will slowly switch to alternatives and start conserving a lot more.

Gas isnt going to just triple in price one day. And even if it did, 6 dollars a gallon gas isnt that expensive. Not expensive at all considering coffee at starbucks is 4 dollars and in some other countires it already cost that much.

[JayHMorrison]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', 'T')he gas prices shot up pretty suddenly in the 70s. Also remember that it's not just about price. The price can be low, but it won't help if 3/4 of the gas stations shut down, and people have to wait 3 hours in line to fill up their tanks.

[Yamaha_R6]

I really dont like it when you keep saying that I am too uneducated to be worth the time. You should know I am not uneducated and even if i was i would still be inteligent. If you were able to present facts on why the gas prices will shoot up so quickly as to collapse society, I would listen and be able to understand them, but you havent so oh well.

Someone asked what I based my assumption on that gas prices will rise slowly. I have to ask you what you based your assumptions on that they will rise quickly, and respond by saying the government understands how important energy is to our economy. If we are in serious trouble, I don't doubt for a second that Bush would use his dictator like power to regulate the gas prices by forcing us to conserve. Rationing is a possibility, larger rebates on economy and hybrid cars, more tax on gas hogs. Factories can switch to electric machines instead of gas powered ones.

A lot of you argue that once we go into a recession, that it will be near impossible to make alternative energy sources viable. Need i remind you Mr. Bush has the whole army core of engineers, controll over the most powerfull military in the world, and unlimited amounts of "money" to do things. Even if the value of the dollar falls to nothing, If Mr bush tells the nation to start building now as an effort to save the economy, and he took what gas that we had left pumping and reserved it all as government property to be used for the construction of new infrustructure, we would see action unlike anything before. We might have to nationalize certain essential undustries, we might have to use are military to run the factories to make energy alternatives... after all the enlisted men are slaves to bush....

But we have the ability to create whatever we can dream. Even long after peak we will still have lots of oil... once the government nationalizes it they can use it as they see fit, and the gas is almost free as there is no market for it since the government controlls it. The government isnt going to roll over and die, if people in power know anything its how to stay in power. And for whatever reason Americans love to do what bush wants.

I honestly believe the vast majority of Americans would go work for the government for free if that is what was desperatly needed and Bush called upon us to do it. You people view Americans in generall as animals, which is true for some of us, but we have proven again and again to overcome all obsticals. I see no reason why this wont be solved without people in America dying.

[Pops]

Whew!

Then best we can hope then for is a threat of a terror attack this fall so the election can be canceled and the resident in chief named king?

You scare me.

[Yamaha_R6]

Another thing that gets me Matt is that you seem to truly believe that there will be die-offs in first would countries, you either really believe this or you are a very good lier.

I think that maybe subconsciously you want these die offs to happen and as a result you see all the evidence for its possibility but ignore the massive evidence against it.

Prehaps in the back of your mind you want to be able to know that you were right all along.

Maybe when you first started researching you did believe in these die-offs but as time went on you started to see that this would most likely not happen but didnt want to admit to everyone that you had made a mistake because A. Your book would be meaningless. B. You loose credibility because you would be admitting to being so wrong on something so big. And C. This means you wasted all that time.

Think you might need mental help with a doctor. Why, because I believe you have a serious obsession that needs to be adressed. Obsession with the collapse of society that is. HOW MUCH TIME exactly, have you spent obsessing over this. Do you have a life outside of this? Is there anything else that you think about, can you let this go?

Even if its just for laughs there is nothing wrong with seeing a doctor, after all its better to be safe then sorry.

Another thing, there are a lot of very very very educated people in the united states, at least a few hundred thousand. How many people are members of this bored world wide??? 4 hundred????

I think a lot of this is all in your minds... you have created it... because a LOT more people would have done the math and found this problem with energy and come to the conclusion you have. The issue still would be underappreciated, but i think it would still be an issue if it was that bad of a problem. I think all the other educated people who have looked into this have determined the problem wasnt that bad because of the alternatives and numbers you people choose to ignore.

AND PLEASE.. no conspiracy theorys... Bush may not be the best president, but i believe no president in the history of the united states would willingly let the U.S. fall into collapse.. These arnt evil demonds.. just people, who generally try to do whats best. I dont think a cover up of this magnitude is possible.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '�')��Everyone ASS U ME S that price is going to just sky rocket…
Gas isnt going to just triple in price one day.”



Perhaps you could tell us the basis for your assumption that it won’t.

[MattSavinar]

Oh lord, here we go again:

If somebody (anybody) is going to flame me, can you please do so without referring to one of the following:

1. My age
2. That I wrote a book
3. That I'm trained in law
4. My mental health or lack there of.

I'm not saying don't flame me. Just be a bit creative about it okay? Do a google search for:

"Matt Savinar Botched penis enlargment surgery before and after pictures"

and post what you find. That way you won't have to keep harping on the fact I'm a young, self-published, mentally ill attorney in hopes of making me look bad.

Matt

[MrPC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', 'G')as lines happened because of rationing instead of allowing the free market to set the price. If the govt stays out of the way and allows the price to go up based upon supply and demand, then there will be no lines. Those who cannot afford $5 per gallon will not be in line to get it. They will have to take the bus, ride a bike, carpool, or walk.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrPC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', 'G')as lines happened because of rationing instead of allowing the free market to set the price. If the govt stays out of the way and allows the price to go up based upon supply and demand, then there will be no lines. Those who cannot afford $5 per gallon will not be in line to get it. They will have to take the bus, ride a bike, carpool, or walk.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yamaha_R6', 'I') really dont like it when you keep saying that I am too uneducated to be worth the time. You should know I am not uneducated and even if i was i would still be inteligent. If you were able to present facts on why the gas prices will shoot up so quickly as to collapse society, I would listen and be able to understand them, but you havent so oh well.

Someone asked what I based my assumption on that gas prices will rise slowly. I have to ask you what you based your assumptions on that they will rise quickly, and respond by saying the government understands how important energy is to our economy. If we are in serious trouble, I don't doubt for a second that Bush would use his dictator like power to regulate the gas prices by forcing us to conserve. Rationing is a possibility, larger rebates on economy and hybrid cars, more tax on gas hogs. Factories can switch to electric machines instead of gas powered ones.

A lot of you argue that once we go into a recession, that it will be near impossible to make alternative energy sources viable. Need i remind you Mr. Bush has the whole army core of engineers, controll over the most powerfull military in the world, and unlimited amounts of "money" to do things. Even if the value of the dollar falls to nothing, If Mr bush tells the nation to start building now as an effort to save the economy, and he took what gas that we had left pumping and reserved it all as government property to be used for the construction of new infrustructure, we would see action unlike anything before. We might have to nationalize certain essential undustries, we might have to use are military to run the factories to make energy alternatives... after all the enlisted men are slaves to bush....

But we have the ability to create whatever we can dream. Even long after peak we will still have lots of oil... once the government nationalizes it they can use it as they see fit, and the gas is almost free as there is no market for it since the government controlls it. The government isnt going to roll over and die, if people in power know anything its how to stay in power. And for whatever reason Americans love to do what bush wants.

I honestly believe the vast majority of Americans would go work for the government for free if that is what was desperatly needed and Bush called upon us to do it. You people view Americans in generall as animals, which is true for some of us, but we have proven again and again to overcome all obsticals. I see no reason why this wont be solved without people in America dying.

[Yamaha_R6]

OH GEEZ... dont start making Bush look like hitler... I by no means like bush.. but that is wrong on so many levels. That whole thing about gas going up 20x-50x is absolute crap. People absolutly can cut down on there gas needs and thus reduce supply which will intern reduce price of gas. My family has 3 cars that get less then 25 miles to the gallon average. I would ride my motorcycle which gets 40 miles to the gallon, and the other 2 cars would be replaced with a modern economy car. BIG WHOOPDY DO. Poor me I will have to drive a Mazda 3 series instead of a ford Ranger.... this must mean the end of the world.... If and when gas prices hit 5 bucks a gallon... we are goig to see more economy cars sold then everything else combined. Toyota Echos get almost 40 miles to the gallon and they only cost 10,000.... used a lot less... so everyone will be able to switch cars. And once we are all in better fuel economy cars, demand will drop and prices will go down.

[Yamaha_R6]

ALSO.. you should tell a doctor all this, its not an insult, i dont care if you are obsessive or not, I am not trying to question your inteligence or logic... i just think you are obsessive. And you problebly are... admitt it... you have been obsessing over all this for a looong time now... you are unable to get over it. The worst thing is you use logic to justify why you cant get over it. Your thinking is the end of the world is here... must tell others..... must survive.... so how can you just drop it..... I dont know... maybe i doctor can tell you.