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Question for the blacks and mexicans

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Question for the blacks and mexicans

Unread postby lawnchair » Wed 30 Jan 2008, 19:22:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'T')he Anti- side gets hammered again and again because they cannot protect their flank- the economic and ecological aspect of the question.


Thank you BW. The horror, sub-rosa transmitted by the Pro-immigration camp is that, without immigrants, we wouldn't keep the GDP growing and things would get more expensive. Both are true.

But, we also cannot afford the costs, environmental, ecological, or infrastructural of continuing to grow.

It is very unfair to blame the factor (immigrants) we need for growth for our mortal addiction to growth.

I could be more magnanimous with our prosperity if I believed that immigrants' remittances to their home of origin were going to things like education (which would help reduce the birthrate there) or sustainable infrastructure projects. I don't think they are. They go to a family whose 'success' is landing another child in El Norte. If that is the definition of success, it is natural to double the odds of it working by having two sons or many, many, more.

The New-Western "Parents? What parents?" society is evil. Sure. It rewards material consumption at a terrible cost to the environment and degrades human compassion. But, the environmental impact is less, over time, that what a continuous logarithmic growth of even the least wasteful Bantu would lead to.

We can't go down the road of sustainability and non-growth until our entire economic/migratory area goes down the road of sustainability and non-growth. We'd either have to implement sustainability across the area (and with globalization, the world is that area) or restrict the area to implement sustainability in our own area (18th century Japan?).

But, of course, we don't *want* to go down the path of sustainability. It's not as shiny. So, we encourage immigrants with one hand but assign them the blame for the problems of our own unsustainable growth.
At 1% annual growth, human bodies will incorporate every gram in the observable universe in approximately 10,170 years.
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Re: Question for the blacks and mexicans

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Wed 30 Jan 2008, 20:21:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lawnchair', '
')But, of course, we don't *want* to go down the path of sustainability. It's not as shiny. So, we encourage immigrants with one hand but assign them the blame for the problems of our own unsustainable growth.


This is why I think NAFTA, the 'war on drugs' and all the other economic crap that has destroyed Mexico and Central America. Every fascist state needs a scapegoat. :(
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', '&')quot;Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"

First thing to ask: Cui bono?
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Re: Question for the blacks and mexicans

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 30 Jan 2008, 22:48:12

Remember that thread about the prevalence of racism on this board?

I think this thread proves it.
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Re: Question for the blacks and mexicans

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 31 Jan 2008, 00:01:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'D')EAR WHITE MAN, YOU STOLE OUR LANDS AND RAPED OUR WOMEN ... FUCK YOU


Actual view of this native american.


Dear "Native American",

Newsflash: YOU'RE NEITHER. Amerigo Vespucci, for whom the continents are named, was an Italian. And if by "native" you are implying that your ancestors were indigenous, they weren't. They were immigrants just like the ancestors of all the rest of us. Just because they got here 'first' doesn't make it 'their' land. In fact I seem to recall one of your own making some comment to the effect that 'owning' the land was an absurd idea. Seattle, I believe it was...

On the other hand, if by 'native' you mean 'born here', well then, so was I, and most likely so were most of the people commenting in this thread, so we've got just as much right to claim it as 'our own' as you.

Oh and by the way... Indians and Mexicans and Africans engaged in slavery just as much as the white man, the main difference being that they enslaved members of their own respective races. At least the Whiteys largely respected other whites as equals, even if they were an enemy.
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Re: Question for the blacks and mexicans

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Thu 31 Jan 2008, 17:30:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Oh and by the way... Indians and Mexicans and Africans engaged in slavery just as much as the white man, the main difference being that they enslaved members of their own respective races. At least the Whiteys largely respected other whites as equals, even if they were an enemy.


No, I'm sorry, that is false. White people enslaved other white people right up to recent history. Enslaved, annihilated, warred with, etc. Your scholarship of History is incomplete.

Its relevant to point out that, for as long as American history has evolved, there have been a repeating phenomenon of immigrants, and backlash against immigrants. Every group follows this pattern all the way back to the founding of the country. In fact, the general way in which immigrant groups get here and stay here is through a pattern of the population increasing until a domestic backlash occurred.

America is like a gang where, if your group wants to join, you have to eat shit for years and get your ass kicked thoroughly. Only after clawing your way up the social ladder and getting the door slammed in your face over and over do you get in. The key here is that, to some degree, you are "assimilated" into the culture.

This Mexican immigration is a second-wave. They are sneaking in the door while the culture at large is doped on a post-WWII Utopianism. This is the same door that is allowing power, money, and resources to flow out of the country. The Mexicans are consolidating their power.

The sheer number of immigrants is totally out of historical proportion. The sheer number as a percentage of total population is ridiculous. The Irish were a mere trickle compared to this flood. Nothing like the mass migration over the Mexican border in the last 30 years has ever happened in this "country of immigrants".

The closest thing I can imagine is the Chinese immigration at the turn of the century. The resolution of that situation was the forced expulsion of all the aliens within the US. But the number of Mexicans here is much, much larger. Their political bloc is enormous and is influencing the political platforms. The Democrats are likely going to capitulate. The Republicans can't seem to get anything done.

Stopping immigration and deporting aliens is what should be done. The result of that is that we're going to have to subsidize and stabilize our entire food production system.... the avoidance of which has been the real impetus behind our leaders sitting on their hands. Nothing depresses techno-society like the mundane reality of having to figure out how to feed everybody. The society that landed on the moon doesn't want to "backslide" into the messy, vegetative reality of existence. It doesn't want to step foot in a modern Confined Animal Feedlot Operation. It doesn't want to pick strawberries or harvest lettuce. It doesn't want to backslide into an agrarian reality, far from the transcendental iPod and headphone virtuality of finance-backed capitalism. Modern spirituality doesn't want to backslide into the pagan reality of living close to the land.

Immigration, to my mind, is really about industrial agriculture. Cheap immigrant labor is WHY you eat meat every day, period. Cheap immigrant labor makes it possible to perpetuate an 18th century business Ag model into the 21st. Agriculture is one of the last remaining production sectors in the USA that actually produces something of value for ourselves. The Mexicans originally came here for the Ag, but also for manufacturing. Railroads needed to be built. Now their cheap labor is the only thing keeping American farms running. We refused to pay for sensibly harvested, family farm food, and the market shaped itself to our specifications. Now we have a critically malformed agricultural sector that is an economic and ecological disaster. America fell asleep in the 1970s and never woke up.



References: Takaki, Takaki, "A Different Mirror"
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