I recently got an oil change in my pontiac at my local dealer and it's increased to $34.00 + $2.00 enviromental fee. That's $36.00 (plus 15% tax) for an oil change. Over the life of a car, it really adds up, hundreds of dollars, not to mention the litres of oil used up.
It got me thinking, why hasn't there been any improvements in engines to elimimate the need to keep doing oil changes. Can't the pistons/cyclinders be coated with something?
any thoughts......
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price of an oil change (car)
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price of an oil change (car)
by redfire » Sat 26 Nov 2005, 11:34:41
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redfire - Wood
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Re: price of an oil change (car)
by GoIllini » Sat 26 Nov 2005, 13:33:12
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('redfire', 'I') recently got an oil change in my pontiac at my local dealer and it's increased to $34.00 + $2.00 enviromental fee. That's $36.00 (plus 15% tax) for an oil change. Over the life of a car, it really adds up, hundreds of dollars, not to mention the litres of oil used up.
It got me thinking, why hasn't there been any improvements in engines to elimimate the need to keep doing oil changes. Can't the pistons/cyclinders be coated with something?
any thoughts......
It got me thinking, why hasn't there been any improvements in engines to elimimate the need to keep doing oil changes. Can't the pistons/cyclinders be coated with something?
any thoughts......
While we're waiting for a mechanic or mechanical engineer to give a more authoritative answer, my guess is that oil needs to be changed because we have to deal with all sorts of impurities and dirt getting into the engine.
Your gas isn't perfect. Neither is the air coming into the engine, despite the air filter. As long as the world has dust and imperfect gasoline/ air filters, we'll probably need oil changes.
Now, we are getting better. I think that Mobil claims that its new brand of oil allows your car to go 5,000 miles/ 6 months without an oil change, rather than the typical 3,000/ 3 months.
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GoIllini - Tar Sands
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Re: price of an oil change (car)
by BlisteredWhippet » Sat 26 Nov 2005, 18:38:55
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')It got me thinking, why hasn't there been any improvements in engines to elimimate the need to keep doing oil changes. Can't the pistons/cyclinders be coated with something?
')It got me thinking, why hasn't there been any improvements in engines to elimimate the need to keep doing oil changes. Can't the pistons/cyclinders be coated with something?
Have you ever cooked something in a frying pan without using oil? Its called TEFLON.
Why couldn't t they use it in an engine? I don't know. Perhaps the car companies aren't really interested in making any radical changes in engine design. They have to compete for business by selling as cheap a product as possible. That could have something to do with it. something to think about when you're sitting in traffic.
What are the consequences of engine design where a wet oil sump is used, and gasoline is the primary fuel? Yep. Pollution of the environment: this is called the externalization of cost, since eventually society pays to clean it up.
A gasoline engine is extremely dirty and inefficient by design. We all know by sheer instinct how grossly inefficient an SUV is, and the numbers bear that out. The design though, leaks energy like its, well, bottomless. On top of that, oil is a problematic substance to contain- in a typical car there are 3-4 vessels containing oil, and anywhere from 5-15 mechanisms lubricated with hydrocarbon-based grease. The only thing keeping pollution from happening are seals and draining/filling technique. There is no such thing as a production car that does not create pollution at some point within the first 50,000 miles. This pollution is also waste.
But lets forget the fact that a Nissan Pathfinder is grossly overengineered for the purpose of hauling one person's fat ass to the grocery store and back. How many liters of displacement does fetching groceries actually require? Dow many differentials, transfer cases, and transmission fluid? The stubborn fact is that production cars are built for all-purposes, not a specific purpose, and as cheaply as possible- the inefficiency of the machine is a design goal, not an oversight. So any production car is going to waste at a gargantuan rate, pollute the environment like no tomorrow, and theres fuck-all we can do about it as long as there is no one to force companies to make vehicles differently, and everyone refuses to utilize alternatives.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Your gas isn't perfect. Neither is the air coming into the engine, despite the air filter. As long as the world has dust and imperfect gasoline/ air filters, we'll probably need oil changes.
Gasoline is problematic in an internal combustion engine because of blow-by. As the engine ages, tolerances become greater, and the rings around the piston which seperate the crankcase oil and combustion chamber wear, allowing the small molecules of gasoline into the engine oil.
Heres the problem: gasoline in the presense of oil begins breaking it down and forming a corrosive solvent, weakening the oil's ability to lubricate. That is why you need to change your oil, and it is also why a gasoline engine's typical lifespan is between 100 and 200,000 miles. Its a design problem first and foremost. Engine oil goes black as gasoline is mixed with the oil every time it is started cold. Oil has been improved to compensate but the essential reaction has remained the same.
If you were running a pure gas, like Propane or Methane, for instance, the gas would not mix with the liquid oil no matter how old or new the engine was. So a solvent liquid fuel like gasoline is a big part of the problem. Increases in longevity stem from increases in fuel delivery, vaporization, and combustion, but in the end, there is always some liquid solvent in the combustion chamber condensed on the cylinder wall no matter how careful you are.
Are there better engine technologies? You Betcha! But why can't you buy them? Because you don't actually think the car companies give a crap about the environment, do you? And when they do bring you the newest electronically-controlled gasification "super-efficient" engine designs, they're going to be mated to a 3000 lb. frame with electronically heated leather seats, and your efficiency will hardly be dented.
I think efficiency, in the larger sense of being a design goal for transport companies, will only come around when people reprioritize their values to reflect a more responsible view of personal efficiency. In other words, the guy that is driving the public debate on vehicular efficiency is the guy that doesn't own a car at all- and is "driving" his bicycle everywhere.
The people that dominate the debate are people who have no sense of the possibilities, or sense of reality. They are a million soccer moms who want a Volvo xC90 to get 2 more mpg, and have formed affinity groups to blab about it. Basically, people who don't want to alter their own values or practices that much, they want someone else to do it for them. And because they have no real connection to the environment (because of cost externalization and a tactile lack of awareness) they will not ask for any radical changes. They are not willing to give up anything to improve the situation, meaning the situation will not improve.
Lets look at why an oil change is $36. I'd be willing to bet a fair chunk is from taxation, levied by cities and counties that suffer the huge burden of removing and remediating the environment, and see the oil change services as an easy target. Oil, as stated before, is a problematic substance. Used oil, which is burnt hydrocarbons mixed with gasoline solvent, is even moire problematic, and toxic. Even though modern oils and engines could probably get away with running 10,000 miles between oil changes, a manufacturer likes to pad his responsiblity by dumping the oil every 3,000 miles. So by multiplying the number of oil changes, you multiply the waste and inefficiency.
Ever watch one of the grease monkeys in the oil change pit? Covered in oil. Putting it in the car, or taking it out, the oil just wants to escape, and does- it gets everywhere. How pulluting is oil? One drop will spoil 1000 gallons of drinking water. The oil change station, therefore, is the equivalent of a toxic waste dump. (By the way, what function do roads serve for the sake of the environment? To channel hydrocarbon waste directly to groundwater via stomdrains. The entire infrastructure is Built To Spill.) The kids who operate the oil change machinery are exposed to toxic cancer-ausing substances for the entire shift, and how many clueless soccermoms get back in their car and drive off with an oil filter not torqued completely on? Tens of thousands?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Now, we are getting better. I think that Mobil claims that its new brand of oil allows your car to go 5,000 miles/ 6 months without an oil change, rather than the typical 3,000/ 3 months.
Propaganda! Oil has changed, but not that much. Neither has the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) since the damn thing was invented, as shown by the monotonous lack of improvement or innovation year over year in production models.
Mobil 1's claim is a marketing gimmick since for the most part, an oil change interval is not pegged at the point where the oil has broken down enough to no longer be an effective lubricant, but at a point where it still retains most of its lubricating ability, to mitigate the possibility of not changing it before total breakdown occurs.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Your gas isn't perfect. Neither is the air coming into the engine, despite the air filter. As long as the world has dust and imperfect gasoline/ air filters, we'll probably need oil changes.
I agree with you on the oil changes- as a design problem that has been "engineered-in".... but air filters are rather effective at removing small particles from the intake. Air filters are pretty simple, and have nothing to do with changing the engine oil- that claim is another chunk of bogus propaganda engineered to get a clueless consumer to buy more filters, more often.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I recently got an oil change in my pontiac at my local dealer and it's increased...
Heres another reason your oil change is so expensive- you took it to a dealer....
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')It got me thinking, why hasn't there been any improvements in engines to elimimate the need to keep doing oil changes. Can't the pistons/cyclinders be coated with something?
Why haven't there been any improvements? Good question. Go knock on the door to the chairman of General Motors.
To me the reason is as plain as all the people walking by in the mall in front of me right now. Most of them don't know, don't care, and just need to buy a car. They don't know whats in it, how it works, or what its for, necessarily. Since they are the mass of consumers, their purchasing power will determine the kinds of products that make the market. And that market has consistently voted with their wallets for larger, more polluting, less innovative vehicles featuring the very lowest value in efficiency as possible.
These people have organized their lives and lifestyles around habitual practices that absolutely require the grossest of inefficiencies to continue from day to day. The political, commerical, and social infrastructures that have arisen from this c onsumer base are as inefficient on the whole as it is in their individual lives. Choices have been limited to options differing little in their basic efficiency.
The oil change, in my view, is the single biggest signifier of the wastefulness of our modern society. In and of itself, a waste of energy, to facilitate a waste of energy, on top of which all the energy-wasting activites of modern life are predicated upon.
What is the REAL price of an oil change?
