[SFDukie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')On your 1st point Mos, I think the opposite is true, people found it very easy to leap from seeing big rocket launches on TV to believing there was no further substantial barrier to going to the moon. The Van Allen radiation belt was far from common knowledge at the time. So was the risk of space debris or asteroid collision.

My number 1 reason for doubting the story is the lack of any visible landing crater under the lander on any shots I have seen. I would appreciate if anyone can show me a picture of this landing crater.

Your second point is a gross over simplification. Implying childish motives to those who question the veracity of the official 9/11 story. There are piles of perfectly logical holes in this story.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')e routinely send space craft hundreds of miles above the planet earth, mostly beyond the pull of earth gravity. Why is it hard to believe that we could easily coast the rest of the way--all the way to the moon?

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', 'L')et me say this with 100% certainty. A human manufactured object launched from the US orbited and produced a lander that landed on the moon during all of the Apollo lander missions. Independent radio telescopes around the world tracked that object including those from highly hostile nations.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', ' ')

Hm, again your little pet theory is factualy incorrect, it's a yet another example of feel good myth to put it mildly. The russian space programme didn't have global network of directional antennas available (24hrs) at that time for tracking these crafts, so they were ("contractually") dependent on the UK station at Jordell Bank for verification of some of their own missions!

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Good points.. it's really not as big of a deal as we're all making it out to be. In astronomical terms, the moon is literally right in our backyard. All you need to do is get your trajectory right, do a burn and coast all the way there.

[Mesuge]

Yes, it still continues to be embarrasing for your 100% claim of independent verification of the moon landings, either by soviet union or some other 3rd parties. It simply doesn't exist in what could be defined as tracking in it from "A-Z".

Is Jordell claiming they tracked the missions fully?, no they are on the record they did not. Is there any russian account how they fully tracked the missions, I'd like to see it..

Wtf? I'm not discounting doppler, or the existence of russian/soviet space command antenna fleet at some point (since very late 60s?), which is yet another silly strawman and evidence of your weak position. Present us with the record, as a general space exploration supporter I'd like to know as well and put the questions to rest.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'Y')es, it still continues to be embarrasing for your 100% claim of independent verification of the moon landings, either by soviet union or some other 3rd parties. It simply doesn't exist in what could be defined as tracking in it from "A-Z".

Is Jordell claiming they tracked the missions fully?, no they are on the record they did not. Is there any russian account how they fully tracked the missions, I'd like to see it..

Wtf? I'm not discounting doppler, or the existence of russian/soviet space command antenna fleet at some point (since very late 60s?), which is yet another silly strawman and evidence of your weak position. Present us with the record, as a general space exploration supporter I'd like to know as well and put the questions to rest.

[Mesuge]

Another mos-like zero substance answer, example of egomaniacs unable to come to terms with their own (perhaps honest), mistake, which I don't believe at this point is the case.

So, again show us your "100%" historical record:
when, who, how, independently tracked-verified the landings!

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'A')nother mos-like zero substance answer, example of egomaniacs unable to come to terms with their own (perhaps honest), mistake, which I don't believe at this point is the case.

[Mesuge]

Yet, again predictable non-answer like from a clockwork "believer"..

Firstly, it was You buddy who came here with boldish "100% claim" the mission landings were independently tracked-verified all the way by the second super-power and/or other 3rd parties and their directional recon/antenna systems. Which I demonstrated is not what the actual historical record shows. Simply, your statement is distorted and not true, unless you or other parties bring up another evidence. You are even not up to simple task to admit to error in judgement. Obviously, curious minds are invited, I'm not hesitant to find out/learn more as well on the subject.

Why the rest of the world, also engaged in the expensive space race/exploration, remained silent on this one, I don't know, don't push any theory and certainly would like to grasp it as well. Moreover, in the light of your false innitial statement it's a tangential issue and another strawman put forward anyway..

You buried own hole of credibility a notch deeper, good luck.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '
')Firstly, it was You buddy who came here with boldish "100% claim" the mission landings were independently tracked-verified all the way by the second super-power and/or other 3rd parties and their directional recon/antenna systems.

[Sixstrings]

I just ran across a good debunking article on NASA's own website:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ebruary 23, 2001 -- Last week my phone rang. It was my mother ... and she was upset.

"Tony!" she exclaimed, "I just came from the coffee shop and there's an [adjective omitted] man down there who says NASA never landed on the Moon. Everyone was talking about it ... I just didn't know what to say!"

That last bit was hard to swallow, I thought. Mom's never at a loss for words.
But even more incredible was the controversy that swirled through her small-town diner and places like it across the country. After a long absence, the "Moon Hoax" was back.

(snip)

Fortunately the Soviets didn't think of the gag first. They could have filmed their own fake Moon landings and really embarrassed the free world.

(snip)

Just as meteoroids constantly bombard the Moon so do cosmic rays, and they leave their fingerprints on Moon rocks, too. "There are isotopes in Moon rocks, isotopes we don't normally find on Earth, that were created by nuclear reactions with the highest-energy cosmic rays," says McKay. Earth is spared from such radiation by our protective atmosphere and magnetosphere.

Even if scientists wanted to make something like a Moon rock by, say, bombarding an Earth rock with high energy atomic nuclei, they couldn't. Earth's most powerful particle accelerators can't energize particles to match the most potent cosmic rays, which are themselves accelerated in supernova blastwaves and in the violent cores of galaxies.

Indeed, says McKay, faking a Moon rock well enough to hoodwink an international army of scientists might be more difficult than the Manhattan Project. "It would be easier to just go to the Moon and get one," he quipped.

And therein lies an original idea: Did NASA go to the Moon to collect props for a staged Moon landing? It's an interesting twist on the conspiracy theory that TV producers might consider for their next episode of the Moon Hoax.

"I have here in my office a 10-foot high stack of scientific books full of papers about the Apollo Moon rocks," added McKay. "Researchers in thousands of labs have examined Apollo Moon samples -- not a single paper challenges their origin! And these aren't all NASA employees, either. We've loaned samples to scientists in dozens of countries [who have no reason to cooperate in any hoax]."

Even Dr. Robert Park, Director of the Washington office of the American Physical Society and a noted critic of NASA's human space flight program, agrees with the space agency on this issue. "The body of physical evidence that humans did walk on the Moon is simply overwhelming."
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast23feb_2/

[dorlomin]

Found this but cannot vouch for it.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')ranslated:

We "saw",
As Americans
Sat down on the Moon...
E.Molotov specially
For " News of astronautics "

Whether clause(article) of the participant of events of 30-years prescription of E.P.Molotova offered(suggested) to readers throws light on unknown pages of " lunar race " and finally closes a ridiculous question " there Were Americans on the Moon? "

Has passed more than 30 years since as the most expensive race between Soviet Union and the United States of America for superiority(championship) in landing the person to the Moon has been developed(unwrapped). Who has won this race of prestige - it is known. Many events have taken place for this time...

Process of competition was repeatedly described both American, and the Russian party(side). It is represented to us interesting to tell about one of it(him) of earlier not shined(covered) episodes.

Programs of preparation of landing of the person on the Moon in the USSR (flight УР-500 - Л-1, landing(planting) Н-1 - Л-3) and in the USA ("Apollo") were conducted in parallel, and superiority(championship) had powerful political value. The Soviet management(manual) paid the big attention to a state of affairs with realization of the lunar program both in Soviet Union, and in America. For the objective control over performance of the American program the secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU D.F.Ustinov supervising the defensive industry of the country, at the end of 1967 has entrusted main designer РНИИ КП (at that time SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE - 885) M.S.Rjazanskomu to develop a special control radio engineering complex with which help it would be possible to accept signals from the American spacecrafts of the program "Apollo", making flight of the Moon and landing(planting) to its(her) surface.

M.S.Rjazansky at that time was responsible for creation of onboard and ground radio engineering control facilities by spacecrafts of the Soviet lunar program. Under his(its) management(manual) for management Soviet пилотируемыми and automatic spacecrafts for research of the Moon the Ground complex of management including two control centres by flight, six ground and three ship items(points) of the management, equipped with corresponding stations of tracking and located on territory of Soviet Union and in the certain points of World ocean has been created. However these means could not be used for reception of the information from the ships "Apollo" as they worked in the other frequency range with the signals having other structure. Therefore it was necessary to create the special control complex, capable to provide reception of the data from "Apollos". It was supposed to accept from the American spacecrafts not only telephone (voice) and telemetering, but also the television information.

Has been solved to include in a control complex aerial TNA-400 with diameter of a mirror 32 m which was placed in Crimea, near to Simferopol (fig. 1). She(it) was used as the reception aerial of a radio engineering complex "Saturn - МС" providing management by the Soviet automatic space vehicles for research of the Moon later: "Moon rovers", devices for delivery of a lunar ground to the Earth, and also lunar satellites.

For work in structure of a control complex aerial TNA-400 has been equipped малошумящим with the reception device working in a range of 13 sm (range S in which transmitters of lunar modules of the program "Apollo" worked). Besides in structure of a complex have come: the demodulator of a group signal transmitted on bearing(carrying) frequency and the signals transmitted on поднесущих frequencies, the equipment of allocation of the voice, telemetering and television information, and also the equipment of display and management of a complex (fig. 2).

The control complex created in short terms РНИИ КП in cooperation with the several industrial enterprises, was ready to reception of signals from spacecrafts of the program "Apollo" in November, 1968.

To trace the ships at their flight on orbits around of the Moon and at landing(planting) to its(her) surface, it was necessary to have the ballistic data of these orbits for calculation целеуказаний to the aerial. However such data were not published by Americans. Therefore the data on orbits of flight were calculated by ballistics on the basis of time of start and arrival to the Moon of the ships "Apollo" which informed by the American radio. On these data paid off целеуказания for prompting the aerial which were specified on signals accepted by a control complex from the lunar ships.

Such approach to calculation целеуказаний has allowed to accept reliably enough signals from "Apollos". The problem(task) of search of signals was facilitated by that the diagram of an orientation of the aerial covered practically half of disk of the Moon.

Tracking was conducted behind spacecrafts of expeditions(dispatches) "Apollo - 8", "Apollo - 10", "Apollo - 11" and "Apollo - 12" from December, 1968 till November, 1969.
From all these ships telephone conversations of astronauts with the Earth and the telemetering information on a condition of onboard systems were accepted with high quality. The accepted television signal had poor quality because of an insufficient level of an energy potential of a radioline on the basis of the 32-meter aerial.

It is necessary to note, that the American network of tracking and management provided practically round-the-clock communication(connection) with spacecrafts "Apollo" while the Soviet control complex could accept signals only in that part of the visibility range which on time coincided with a visibility range of the Madrid station of tracking.

Lunar expedition(dispatch) under F.Bormana's management(manual) on a spacecraft "Apollo - 8" in December, 1968 has carried out the first пилотируемый flight to the Moon, has made 10 coils around of it(her) and, having come back to the Earth with the second space speed, has made soft landing(planting) at ocean.

This flight has formed the basis for a stop of works on the first stage of Soviet program Л-1 though all technics(technical equipment) and crews to пилотируемому to flight of the Moon by then were ready.

Flight of crew "Apollo - 11" with an output(exit) on a surface of the Moon on July, 20, 1969. N.Armstronga and E.Oldrina has finally stopped competition on landing the person to the Moon.

On fig. 3 photos of spectra of the signals accepted by control station from spacecrafts "Apollo", made with the screen of the videocontrol device are submitted.

On fig. 4 the image of rising of the Earth above the lunar horizon, accepted on a telechannel from one of the ships "Apollo" is shown.

As is known, after that Soviet Union has directed the efforts to research of the Moon by automatic space vehicles therefore impressing results have been received.

In summary we shall note, that data on creation and functioning of the Soviet special control radio engineering complex were not published earlier.

<TO RETURN

[Mesuge]

As explained before the only entity, which claims complete "A-Z" Apollo coverage-verification, i.e. including landing and moon activities is NASA itself. As no other party had the capability for continuous direct coverage, again the Australians were not independent, these were NASA facilities, and the rest like UK/Germany et al. verified only the portion of it, e.g. flight to the Moon trip leg, not the activities on the surface.

In the same vein, visual telescope sighting claims are nice and dandy, not sure why you are including these overhere, as they were not disputed in the first place - with very high probability a craft of some sort performed the earth and possibly lunar orbit.

There is a joint russian-american book by D. Scott and A. Leonov (2004), Two Sides of the Moon. St. Martin's Press. pp. 247. ISBN 0-312-30865-5. Where Leonov claims he was present at some Moscow based center (Star City?) on this event with bunch of aero-space chieftains and fellow kosmonauts, directly watching the landing phase on "spy" equipment (not on terrestrial TV), the american telecast was available on the eastern block tube too. However, this Leonov's account as presented is not substantiated in any formal historical record I'm aware of. The comparison might be a stretch, but Karl Rove did a memoirs book too, and by all accounts it's lies and obfuscation. So, more corroborative material is needed..

In this link they talk about the soviet sea-based space command antenna system, and the fleet was still not complete at the time of Apollo.. http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kik.html

Btw. where is that "E.P.Molotova" russian article orginal buried?, can't see the link..
In any event, the quote from your article also supports the idea soviets didn't have continous coverage, only the "european-euroasian continent" daylight window as per NASA's Madrid station, quite interestingly it suggests this spy-facility ran only till Apollo 12, hm..

So, again the preponderance of evidence at the moment speaks clearly, there is no "100%" verification by independent parties of the entire Apollo mission available.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'S')urely, when you're doing drills, you have to have a contingency plan in case a real emergency happens while you're drilling.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'S')o, again the preponderance of evidence at the moment speaks clearly, there is no "100%" verification by independent parties of the entire Apollo mission available.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '
')So, again the preponderance of evidence at the moment speaks clearly, there is no "100%" verification by independent parties of the entire Apollo mission available.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'S')o there is no room for doubt in your head and you aren't even going to look at it.
Fine. I can't argue with frozen logic.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... ings+faked

Watch some of these and see if your mind is completly unaffected in it's commitment to Apollo.

And don't bother telling me youtube is not authoratative. It is merely the messenger.
Like 9/11 and JFK there are plenty of holes in the official story.

[Mesuge]

Nothing else than sidestepping-show again? What is your problem with not understanding my point from the start? I'm talking about "continuous" verification, the Jodrell Bank Observatory (Luna impact story) is well known, Jodrell by definition is not a global deep space array network as NASA ran back then as the only entity in the world. To the contrary, Jodrell is a single spot on the face of the earth (UK), albeit with some directional "degree of freedom" movement. So, this is not continuous verification capable dish installation and for such a physics virtuoso as you proudly claim to be in every single/other post, shouldn't be hard to figure out they WERE NOT in direct sight for continuous communications with the multi-day Apollo mission. The earth rotates/moon rises at least last time I checked it was true for 1969 as well..

Now, what about a direct quote from email (Percy/White) with this institution,
addressed to Bob Pritchard, his answer:

"In round terms this allowed us to pick up signals from up to about 1000miles above
the moon's surface. [...] As we were not actively involved in tracking of these
spacecrafts, we didn't track them after they left the moon."

/and not continuosly on their way to the moon either
added comment and emphasis mine

In conclusion, Mr. scientist, when the large chunks on the timeline of a particular experiment are not verifiable in independent fashion, the results are deemed questionable, that's science 101.

[Ludi]

Just FYI, this "documentary"

Moon Landing A Fake or Fact part1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUOItuKm5UE

is factually incorrect at 2.5 min in. So far not so good.

Damn those facts!