[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '
')Learn, study, come back and refute evidence, historical narrative, presented e.g. in books of like Peter Dale Scott, Russ Baker, or William Pepper's. Only then you will be taken seriously as a partner to discussion.

[Mesuge]

Nice kiddy lizzard there, sadly it just yet again illustrates the point of mine, cheap shots of no substance on your part. Since you didn't offer any substance till that point, hence the reference to scholars, experts, and your chance to refute them in logical rational dispute or offering a contra narrative, you declined.

Btw. I didn't know Icke was available on mainstream uni libraries, appeared on NYT top bestseller list, or is being endorsed by mainstream intelectuals..

That doesn't mean these are the most important tags of credibility, but certainly an inteligent person (I used to assume you aspire to) would at least attempt to match it in 1:1 rank. Seems you are able to act only like a kid with toy deffered, hm, without going further deep into psycho-analysis some comparisons to one dying empire over the pond could be drawn..

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '
')Nice kiddy lizzard there, sadly it just yet again illustrates the point of mine, cheap shots of no substance on your part. Since you didn't offer any substance till that point, hence the reference to scholars, experts, and your chance to refute them in logical rational dispute or offering a contra narrative, you declined.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', ' ') I'm sure NORAD does drills on all kinds of things, all the time;

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')But, "Oh, gee! We never thought of that" was a good enough answer for the 9/11 Commission.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'I')t's like someone at the equator not beliving in glaciers. You show them pictures of the artic, a movie of people on the glacier, let them talk to the people that have been there and bring them a piece of the glacier back in a 7-11 styrofoam cooler and they still don't believe it.

[dorlomin]

Let me say this with 100% certainty. A human manufactured object launched from the US orbited and produced a lander that landed on the moon during all of the Apollo lander missions. Independent radio telescopes around the world tracked that object including those from highly hostile nations. The physics of faking things like the location of the transmission which could be triangulated with childish ease, monitoring the redshift of the signal as it moved, monitoring the occulation of the object by the moon as it orbited is all well within the capabilities of a number of nations and IIRC was done with all space missions as a matter of routine. The Soyuz 1 disaster was famously tracked by US tracking stations for example.


IIRC (may be wrong) you can actualy examine the Jodrell Bank tapes made of its independent tracking of the flight.

The returned moon rocks are stunning corroborating evidence of at least some robotic pressence on the moon.

For the price of one Lunokhod mission the Soviets could have shattered Americas international standing had they faked the mission.

But then again the Soviets were probibly in on it in some nefferious way, as were the Chinese, British, French, German etc scientists who monitored the mission.

[Ludi]

My husband saw the Apollo 17 night launch from his backyard as a youngster, so he tends to believe they went to the moon.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'G')oebels was the 1st mega master brainwasher, using the power of the 1st serious public address amplification system. Being able to speak to up to a million people at a time was what brought Hitler to power. Unlike the radio, which was usually heard at home, mass rallies and PA systems had the advantage of group psychology.

[SeaGypsy]

I have read tons of stuff about Hitler. I was over simplifying, but I still think the PA had a huge impact via groupthink. Compare listening to a band on a recording to a live performance and you get the idea. To this day, the vast majority of successful musicians are those capable of live performance.

As I already stated, I don't know what happened in these events. I am not claiming to know; merely stating that there is room for doubt on these 3 events when contrary evidence is studied.

I can't help but note that so far all those arguing opposite me are American; where are the other citizens?

For a country with an education system like the USA's, where most people can't point at either of the 2 countries it has invaded in the last decade, to presume people of other countries doubt you because they weren't educated properly stinks of farce.

I agree with Mesuge, that people prepared to jump in to defend status quo beliefs about American history have clearly not looked at alternative sources of information in any detail, or have begun such study with a fixed view. We all tend to find evidence to support our belief system.

Mos can't help but lump up doubters of the USA like me with creationists, for instance. His attitude and that of his article writer are straight out straw man.
There are far more creationists in the USA than in any other modern country in the world; the majority of whom believe the official line on the 3 instances being talked about here.

(BTW, I was born in the USA and raised by a very patriotic American father who was a MP for 7 years in Berlin. Most of my closest friends at home in the Philippines are American military. I know America has greatness in it's history. This doesn't mean I have to accept the official story about everything the USG does.)

[Pretorian]

well, JFK surely got some issues with some people, so believing that a nutcase that was asking for asylam in USSR and tried to killed himself did it all on his own is kinda silly, imho.
9/11? I really dont give a damn, but official story does have more holes than matter. I do remember seeing a front page of their main terrorist's passport in a foreign paper, with claims that FBI found it on the cite of crash. And why would anybody in his own mind ram the plane into a building half an hour before all the fat cats start to crawl into?

Moon thing surely happened, not a big deal, but again i dont give a damn if it didnt.


PS I recall a reaction of one of my friends (white catholic from South America, big patriot of his country) on a big front-page picture of Osam bin Laden.
He said: "Look! This man is a GOD!"

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')Things will only get worse.

[americandream]

Capitalists do what comes natural in order to make a profit, and that includes lying and cheating. Wouldn't you were you stinking rich? They are hardly going to conspire a'la 911 unless there was money in it and they were all one big happy family.

They aren't the latter, more an amorphous mass of the profit hungry and consequently I hardly rate 911 a conspiracy event....the handiword of the overlords of the Islamic Empire perhaps, but the handywork of a worldwide conspiracy of fatcats, hardly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')Things will only get worse.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')They probably learned about Apollo from two sentences in a school history book, but since it's an American achievement they would have just moved on to other subjects. Similarly, their TV and other media has probably spent very little time ever talking about Apollo. So that could be part of it too, that Australians just aren't as much aware of the history in the US during the space race.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')They probably learned about Apollo from two sentences in a school history book, but since it's an American achievement they would have just moved on to other subjects. Similarly, their TV and other media has probably spent very little time ever talking about Apollo. So that could be part of it too, that Australians just aren't as much aware of the history in the US during the space race.

[americandream]

The global capitalist elite are essentially a bunch of old fashioned opportunists. And like all opportunists, we find a variety of factions hard at work securing and enhancing their place at the planetary pig trough of wealth. Empire is often a rather effective means for preserving hierarchical privilege. We have our Imperial order, we call it the "West", the ME has its own, it's called Islam, and we find the newly emerged empires of the Russian Federation and the Peoples Republic of China on the contemporary world stage.

It should not come as any surprise to any serious political analyst that Islam will have a distinct military profile, synonymous as it is with the use of proxies and guerilla warfare in contrast to our (publicly acknowledged (you will note my qualifier)) conventional profile. I don't think one can term an imperial systrem and it's natural tendencies, conspiratorial. These tendencies are as natural as our breathing. If they involve misinformation and hubris, hey, thats hardly surprising, is it? What do you expect. Securing privilege and wealth and its associated intrigues is as old as our earliest of empires.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'O')n the flipside, with 911 troothery, people just can not accept that a bunch of a-rabs could slip through our defenses.

[americandream]

I suspect the Soviets and communist movements wordwide would have blown the lid on this were it a hoax.

The American moonlanding was a fine human achievement and the result of significant effort, sacrifice and funding by the ordinary, hardworking American. Lets not sully it with our disillusion.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'M')y number 1 reason for doubting the story is the lack of any visible landing crater under the lander on any shots I have seen. I would appreciate if anyone can show me a picture of this landing crater.