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Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 28 Feb 2010, 16:44:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'Y')es, the hyper-individualists tend to stare blankly when it is run under their noses that this is a representational democracy. The Constitution guarantees individual rights, but those alone are not enough for a person to enjoy participation. To participate you have to get involved. In a representational democracy that means joining a group and pushing for your agenda. Individuals tend to get lost in that push. Most of the griping and moaning coming from the Tea Party faithful and sundry is due to such a point of view, not to the actual structure of things.

Consumers have never been very good at organizing, remember the boycott movements of the 70's. Ordinarily that is part of free market economics. However, when the situation throws us all back en mass as a citizenry we do have a group that we can say we belong to. The government is us and we are the government. The government is not some foreign entity that is stealing from us. It is an entity that acts in response from the agitation of its own citizens. If a person's interests are not being met they should consider participating and not relying solely on their rights. That's what the healthcare debate is about.


The tea party party has been co-opted by rich republicans. The poor schmuck behind the counter at 7/11, with the "Get govt off my back" t-shirt somehow feels this is his affinity group. He is wayyyyy too unenlightened to realize that the U.S. is experiencing moral, economic and political decay that amounts to an emergency situation. In past emergencies, like WW2, the rich were taxed at over 90 %. That would buy a lot of universal health care coverage! It would also provide real social cohesion between classes and reduce some of the pain, both physical and mental, and fear.

But the U.S. govt CAN'T provide universal health care; the cheapest and easiest form of coverage. If you look at a pie chart of how these morons spend money, most of it goes to the military to putz around in foreign countries blowing things up and then rebuilding them...over there!!! How profoundly weird.

The U.S. is in slow burn mode, and the wealthy at the pinnacle know it. They're making out like bandits, thriving on the stench of social decay. I just got back from a driving trip down to the Southern U.S, and had the pleasure of driving through Bakersfield on hwy58 and then on to Fresno for lunch. Half the people are on meth, the other half work for the criminal justice system, capitalizing on the opportunities the unravelling fabric of sanity and social cohesion affords.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 07:33:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', 'I') find it just a little odd that nobody has chimed in to say that they have health insurance, or they don't have a problem paying for health insurance.



I have health insurance through the Texas Health Insurance Risk Pool (socialism). My premiums are about $4750 per year. I have a lot of trouble paying them. My deductible is $5000.00. I co-pay for prescriptions ($25-$70 per refill).

I avoid white food. :)
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 08:27:35

I think it'd be nice if we could slow down the machine that we call progress and decrease the costs of it all. How much does a GD-machine cost, or some plastic tubing, etc?

When you see the massive yearly increases above and beyond "inflation" in health care, you known there are definitely some winners... who are gaming with the fact that people don't want to be sick or die.

I'd love to know what the money is being spent on. I would surmise that certain things cost a load of money, and then hospitals distribute the higher costs of those things amongst things that don't cost a lot.

It seems to me more honest billing would go a long way. I'd love to know what hospitals spend the money on.

I'd say we need to make some hard choices... I am wondering if the 20/80 rule applies here, maybe 20% of patients account for 80% of the health care costs...
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 09:17:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')I'd say we need to make some hard choices...



Do you mean we need to cut the rope?
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 09:38:17

I have been largely vegan and definitly off red meat for 25 years, most of my working life. I have always been very physically and mentally active. I have been an of and on smoker for most of this time. I have been to the doctor less than 10 times in this period.
During the same time I have paid between 2% and 3% of my gross income into medicare. So am I complaining? Not on your life. I am Australian. I have never had to worry about health insurance. I don't want to worry about it and I certainly wouldn't see the 'right' to worry about it as a privelege.
When Obama made his knee jerk "No New Taxes to pay for Medicare" speech; I thought "MORON".
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 11:01:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')I'd say we need to make some hard choices...



Do you mean we need to cut the rope?

Call it what you will.

Every day the "elites" make cost/benefit decisions based on their assessment of the value of human life.

What has been done in the case of health case has been to take situations where the value of a human life has been exceeded, and then distribute those costs to avoid making the hard decisions.

Now that strategy has come back to bite us in the @$$.

If it cost $50,000,000 to let a 75-year old live 6 months longer, that is money that could have saved thousands of other people. $50 million too high of a number for you? Pick one then. Don't want to pick one? Neither does anyone else, and so HERE WE ARE.

Consider this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 21:08:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If it cost $50,000,000 to let a 75-year old live 6 months longer



Does it cost that much?

What number would YOU pick?

I think my Dad's surgery cost something like $3000.00 and the recovery in hospital somewhere in the $100,000.00 range. I can get the exact numbers if you'd like. Quintuple bypass at age 79. He's back at work volunteer mentoring at the dental school and at the charity clinic.

What's the value of my Dad's life?
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Ayoob » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 21:34:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If it cost $50,000,000 to let a 75-year old live 6 months longer



Does it cost that much?

What number would YOU pick?

I think my Dad's surgery cost something like $3000.00 and the recovery in hospital somewhere in the $100,000.00 range. I can get the exact numbers if you'd like. Quintuple bypass at age 79. He's back at work volunteer mentoring at the dental school and at the charity clinic.

What's the value of my Dad's life?


You wouldn't even have to ask the question if your dad had his own policy. If he paid for it, he's covered, and that's the end of it. It doesn't matter whether rangerone thinks your dad's life is worth X or you think it's worth y. He would have a policy that covers him, it's paid for.

See the beauty of being responsible for yourself?
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 01:42:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')I'm going to be starting a new job as a farm hand in the spring, sans health care. Kind of worried about getting injured. I wonder if it's safer just being chained to a computer all day.



Dont wonder. Its not just safer but also more profitable (if you intend to pay for your trauma bills , that is). My grandpa's brother got between the tree and backing out tractor, working as a farm hand. It took him 2 days to die.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 02:03:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If it cost $50,000,000 to let a 75-year old live 6 months longer



Does it cost that much?

What number would YOU pick?

I think my Dad's surgery cost something like $3000.00 and the recovery in hospital somewhere in the $100,000.00 range. I can get the exact numbers if you'd like. Quintuple bypass at age 79. He's back at work volunteer mentoring at the dental school and at the charity clinic.

What's the value of my Dad's life?



Its whatever you are willing and able to pay for it. I will dare to assume though, that you didnt sell your house &all to raise these $103 000, and that if he will need another $200 000 you wont run around looking to sell your kidney or whatnot. Probably you would have a different opinion if you had to.
For the rest of us a 79 year old has a negative value as he /she is a liability rather than an active.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 09:30:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If it cost $50,000,000 to let a 75-year old live 6 months longer



Does it cost that much?

What number would YOU pick?

I think my Dad's surgery cost something like $3000.00 and the recovery in hospital somewhere in the $100,000.00 range. I can get the exact numbers if you'd like. Quintuple bypass at age 79. He's back at work volunteer mentoring at the dental school and at the charity clinic.

What's the value of my Dad's life?


You wouldn't even have to ask the question if your dad had his own policy. If he paid for it, he's covered, and that's the end of it. It doesn't matter whether rangerone thinks your dad's life is worth X or you think it's worth y. He would have a policy that covers him, it's paid for.

See the beauty of being responsible for yourself?

If we nationalize health care (death delay), no one will be responsible for themselves...

Maybe we should just cut out the middleman and declare health insurance to be illegal and make everyone pay out of pocket.

That'd solve all the problems. It should drive down demand for healthcare and decrease costs overall.
Last edited by rangerone314 on Tue 02 Mar 2010, 09:41:32, edited 1 time in total.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 09:31:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If it cost $50,000,000 to let a 75-year old live 6 months longer



Does it cost that much?

What number would YOU pick?

I think my Dad's surgery cost something like $3000.00 and the recovery in hospital somewhere in the $100,000.00 range. I can get the exact numbers if you'd like. Quintuple bypass at age 79. He's back at work volunteer mentoring at the dental school and at the charity clinic.

What's the value of my Dad's life?


You wouldn't even have to ask the question if your dad had his own policy. If he paid for it, he's covered, and that's the end of it. It doesn't matter whether rangerone thinks your dad's life is worth X or you think it's worth y. He would have a policy that covers him, it's paid for.

See the beauty of being responsible for yourself?


And if a grandmother had testicles, she'd be a grandfather. If the elders do cover their Medicare , why does Uncle Sam has to churn in $ 1 000 000 000 every day for it to work?
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 09:35:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I')f we nationalize health care, no one will be responsible for themselves...

Maybe we should just cut out the middleman and declare health insurance to be illegal and make everyone pay out of pocket.

That'd solve all the problems. It should drive down demand for healthcare and decrease costs overall.


what about all those so poor people that everyone else have to work to pay for their healthcare.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 09:37:31

The baby boomer generation etc are pillaging MY taxes for health benefits that *I* am not going to get when I am their age.

So not only am I financing THEIR health benefits against my will with my money, to pay for a bunch of entitled old farts that have gotten fat on steak and HoHos, but that money could be used by me later to try and pay for my healthcare when the system they are pillaging now is gone.

Explain why my generation shouldn't just rise up and put them out of OUR misery?
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 09:40:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I')f we nationalize health care, no one will be responsible for themselves...

Maybe we should just cut out the middleman and declare health insurance to be illegal and make everyone pay out of pocket.

That'd solve all the problems. It should drive down demand for healthcare and decrease costs overall.


what about all those so poor people that everyone else have to work to pay for their healthcare.

Things that are "rights" really don't cost money, for the most part. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion are rights.

I am skeptical of a "right" like health care that only can be implemented by taking money away from Bob to give to Jack.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 10:04:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')he baby boomer generation etc are pillaging MY taxes for health benefits that *I* am not going to get when I am their age.

Explain why my generation shouldn't just rise up and put them out of OUR misery?


Well some might say that they have a need right here and right now, and your need does not exist just as future does not exist today. Aside of that, you have some chances to die well before the future comes, so eliminating the need to bother with you later for whatever reason. This is democracy in action for you. People are willing to vote to make you take care of them, their parents, grandparents, ets. Since old people and their close relatives who dont want to take care of them are the majority, you have to do what they say. Even if its a wipe of an elderly ass or two. Daily.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 10:17:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I')f we nationalize health care, no one will be responsible for themselves...

Maybe we should just cut out the middleman and declare health insurance to be illegal and make everyone pay out of pocket.

That'd solve all the problems. It should drive down demand for healthcare and decrease costs overall.


what about all those so poor people that everyone else have to work to pay for their healthcare.

Things that are "rights" really don't cost money, for the most part. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion are rights.



You think freedom of speech &religion does not cost any money? What about all them prisons, FBI, police and overall justice system? I know of one boring place where you would end up without them, regardless of your views and beliefs. There are people out there ready to kill you no matter what you think or believe.
As for healthcare , personally I think basic stuff should be covered , mostly in order to avoid abuse in private healthcare business, as well as to bring a refreshing competition.. Things like fractures, contagious diseases, heroin for cancer patients.

Speaking of pay-as-you-go advocates of a healthcare system. What to do with contagious deseases? A rare form of tuberculosis that is resistant to antibiotics? You not seriously think that somebody will get a second mortgage so a few neigbours wont get it do you?
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 10:23:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', '
')
You wouldn't even have to ask the question if your dad had his own policy. If he paid for it, he's covered, and that's the end of it.



Of course he has his own insurance, he has three of them now. :) He had to prepay for the surgeon, but I think that cost was reimbursed by his insurance.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 10:25:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')he baby boomer generation etc are pillaging MY taxes for health benefits that *I* am not going to get when I am their age.



Boo hoo. Don't make so much money = pay fewer taxes.
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Re: Personal Reponsibility in Health Care

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 02 Mar 2010, 10:56:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')he baby boomer generation etc are pillaging MY taxes for health benefits that *I* am not going to get when I am their age.



Boo hoo. Don't make so much money = pay fewer taxes.

Excuse me?

That is a justification for the WORTHLESS generation (as opposed to the greatest generation--WWII) to steal money from my generation???

Usually you fly in to a discussion like a seagull, drop a few turds then fly away, but often they are decent turds. "Don't make so much money to pay less taxes" is one of the stupidest things I ever heard.

Maybe I also should drain blood out of my body before I go outside in the summer, so mosquitos get less blood (because mosquitos are parasites like the babyboomer generation).

If I made even a little less money I wouldn't be able to afford the plants, fruit trees etc or the "high life style" you think I live (like the rice I buy bulk at Sam's Club). I am not one of the so-called "Middle Class" that earns $100,000 or more. I bought a house responsibly, manage my debts responsibly (as in only have student loans and mortgages), drive beat up old Civic with 167,000 miles on it.

I shouldn't be paying ANY taxes for those blood-sucking parasites. In fact, if the baby-boomers weren't such a bunch of self-absorbed undead sellouts (one the few redeeming qualities of damn-dirty-hippies was that they had SOME ideas of reforms) maybe I wouldn't BE making preps.

Babyboomers remind me of Nazgul from "Lord of the Rings". Corrupt, materialistic, sucking the life out of the living like wraiths, and they linger on beyond being useful. They didn't make the sacrifices their parents made, and yet feel entitled for the NEXT generations make sacrifices for them as well. (Apparently babyboomer's parents' sacrifices weren't enough, they need to sacrifice their children and grandchildren's well-being as well) For example, even MY parents don't give two s**ts about global warming or pollution affecting their grandchildren, since they won't be alive.

At least Native Americans looked 7 generations back and 7 generations forward.

As far as I'm concerned, maybe all the babyboomers should just be put to death, and both the savings in social security and health care, plus their net assets could be used to pay off the national debt (much of which was run up on THEIR watch, for THEIR benefit, since they had no desire NOT to live beyond their means---as they were SELLOUTS)

The babyboomers got MORE from the system than they put into it by stealing from future generations. They don't deserve 1 penny more for anything, including health care.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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