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The Return of Patriarchy

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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 11:09:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Oooo I have BF2 and CoD4, I excel at them! Use every dirty rotten trick that there is to plug people.



There's a firm grasp on reality for you.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby rangerone314 » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 11:15:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Oooo I have BF2 and CoD4, I excel at them! Use every dirty rotten trick that there is to plug people.



There's a firm grasp on reality for you.

I know what's real and not real. (and reality sucks, that's why I play computer games when I'm not gardening)

And...

Even on "peaceful" games like the Sims, you have people do the "Cask of Amantilado" death trap on Sims to kill them...
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 11:59:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '
')Women are going to be spending more time being pregnant


If that's the case, then it's Long Pork city here we come and any illusions of a graceful way downward is a fantasy.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 12:07:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')My position is that there will be a more equal distribution of power viz-a-viz decision making authority, because the primary form of authority for most men derives from their breadwinner status. Given that that is now rapidly changing due to rising unemployment among traditionally male-dominated fields and increasing numbers of households with women as the primary breadwinners, it stands to reason that women will have more power when it comes to major decisions. Is this really so hard to comprehend?


You're looking at a transitional phenomenon. Women picking up the slack in the workforce won't last that long. When we get into the REAL collapse the formal economy will be history and both the men and the women will be equally unemployed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')Well, as far as I can tell, these pendulum swings are very long in time. It seems clear that prior to the neolithic revolution, women had much more prominent roles in social policy and structure, and it does beg the question how they lasted so long, yet once men took over the show, how quickly, relatively speaking, they managed to muck things up.


And so the truth comes out about your bias. It's all about scapegoating men for the failure of civilization and fantacizing about "team female" taking the wheel.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 13:27:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')
And so the truth comes out about your bias. It's all about scapegoating men for the failure of civilization and fantacizing about "team female" taking the wheel.



"Team female" should be taking the wheel now in the First World, as they have an opportunity to do so with their votes and their control of household incomes, but we see them generally acting like everyone else - competitive, acquisitive - as they have been raised up that way by our culture. Women who rise to power in our society tend to act like men who rise to power. Look at Maggie Thatcher, as a significant modern example.

People tend to behave as they have been raised up to behave, it's quite difficult for folks of any gender to learn different behaviors.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby rangerone314 » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 15:33:02

When more people get unemployed (men AND women), the "alpha" men who stay in means will have multiple women on the side, just like in times past.

The sad "beta" men on the bottom will tolerate this because they will count themselves as lucky to be part-time husbands and glad to have a possibly of having an offspring that is theirs, and also because they hope to share some of the resources/gifts bestowed on the women.

Russell Crowe would probably be a good example of an "alpha" and he WILL bed your woman.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 15:53:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Russell Crowe would probably be a good example of an "alpha" and he WILL bed your woman.



Oh really.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 21:22:25

That does it, being a beta male, I realize that my fate is nookieless, even when I do my
best tinfoil hat where I smoosh up two big horns like an aluminum viking helmet.
All the insightful preps... dark chocolate, 2 dozen red panty roses from the truck stop,
7 bottles of Old Spice, all for naught. Suppose I can start eating that case of Tic Tacs right
away.

Got to run, I left the sink full of dishes and I sure can't take another spanking right now.

I sure hope I get ahold of myself again soon.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 21:32:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', 'T')hat does it, being a beta male, I realize that my fate is nookieless


I find that pondering TEOTWAWKI (not to mention being a divorced single father) leaves me pretty disinterested in the courtship rituals that women expect men to perform. It ain't worth it, man.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Loki » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 21:56:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Why don't you come right out of your semantic little shell and say what you really think?

I think I was being pretty straightforward. You are being a belligerent hypocrite. Clear enough now?

And for the third or fourth time now, nowhere at any time did I say that just because men are better at organized violence, we are "naturally in charge." I neither said nor implied this. Actually, I explicitly stated more than once that I think this is neither necessary nor desirable.

Why would you want to deliberately misread what I said? Why the unprovoked belligerence? I've never had a beef with you, always thought your posts were interesting if occasionally a bit fruity, certainly never seen you act like such a douche before. :roll:
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Loki » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 22:14:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'I') must also say that I'm losing patience with the people saying that women can shoot just like men, work nearly as good as men etc.


You know what I find amazing? That a woman would argue for her own subjugation, that she would cede her power out of fear. Sounds like Stockholm syndrome to me.

She is not arguing for her own subjugation, that's just a nasty accusation, clearly inspired by Ayame's ability to separate reality from feminist political ideology. She's a pragmatist and a realist, at least as far as I can tell from her posts in this thread.

Ayame, I will quibble with one little thing. If we do revert/progress back to an agricultural society, it isn't absolutely necessary that men control farming. There are many many things that women are equally adept at (weeding, planting, watering, etc.), and we men will need the help. I do horticultural work full time, and I'm more than happy to accept women's help. I can move big trees, dig holes, rototill a garden, etc. by myself if I have to, but it's a lot easier with help, even if the helper doesn't happen to have the muscle mass I do.

I don't know much about eastern woodland Indian agricultural cultures, but I vaguely recollect that women had a fair bit of power, including playing a key role in agriculture. I recall reading about a number of native cultures where women basically owned the food (whether hunted, gathered, or grown) because they were the ones who processed it. They also often owned the homes, and in the case of a divorce, the man would move his ass out and couch surf. Actually not all that different than modern society now that I think about it. :)
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Loki » Fri 19 Feb 2010, 22:27:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')
And so the truth comes out about your bias. It's all about scapegoating men for the failure of civilization and fantacizing about "team female" taking the wheel.



"Team female" should be taking the wheel now in the First World, as they have an opportunity to do so with their votes and their control of household incomes, but we see them generally acting like everyone else - competitive, acquisitive - as they have been raised up that way by our culture. Women who rise to power in our society tend to act like men who rise to power. Look at Maggie Thatcher, as a significant modern example.

People tend to behave as they have been raised up to behave, it's quite difficult for folks of any gender to learn different behaviors.

That's a very fair assessment Ludi, I agree completely. Thanks for not taking the low road on that. Women let power go their head just as thoroughly and nastily as men, which is why we need to concentrate on distributing power as widely as possible, and worry less about what shape people's gonads are.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 20 Feb 2010, 01:35:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Why don't you come right out of your semantic little shell and say what you really think?

I think I was being pretty straightforward. You are being a belligerent hypocrite. Clear enough now?

And for the third or fourth time now, nowhere at any time did I say that just because men are better at organized violence, we are "naturally in charge." I neither said nor implied this. Actually, I explicitly stated more than once that I think this is neither necessary nor desirable.

Why would you want to deliberately misread what I said? Why the unprovoked belligerence? I've never had a beef with you, always thought your posts were interesting if occasionally a bit fruity, certainly never seen you act like such a douche before. :roll:


OK then perhaps I have overstated my objection and/ or missread the thrust of your argument. Sorry you feel that way. To be frank I get irritated by both fatalism and 'will to power' based thinking. I am a big fan of Nietzche but I realise the guy was a deskbound sickly man who had no 'venusian arts' talent at all. I do believe there are dimensions beyond our awareness or comprehension, as do most physicists, as well as religionists. If that makes me a new age nutbag or douche then ok me and they are all thus. I don't choose to follow any particular religion, but I have studied many of them and I do find them interesting; more so than plain old materialism. My take on the power structure of society is that it is much more subtle than many people take it to be. There are levels of decision making and control which are barely perceptible or not at all. Therefore I find the patrirachy vs matriarchy debate to be largely facile and based on semantic argument.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby Ayame » Sat 20 Feb 2010, 04:31:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'A')yame, I will quibble with one little thing. If we do revert/progress back to an agricultural society, it isn't absolutely necessary that men control farming. There are many many things that women are equally adept at (weeding, planting, watering, etc.), and we men will need the help. I do horticultural work full time, and I'm more than happy to accept women's help. I can move big trees, dig holes, rototill a garden, etc. by myself if I have to, but it's a lot easier with help, even if the helper doesn't happen to have the muscle mass I do.


Yeah the point I was trying to make is rather that the labour intense hard agricultural work will fall by default onto the men because the women will be more preoccupied with child rearing and all the things that come with it such as making clothes to keep the children warm etc. I don't deny that women can do work, only that division of labour will occur because it is advantageous. I read in an article somewhere that proposed that one contributing reason for neanderthals extinction in the face of homo sapiens was that neanderthals apparently didn't divise labour as much as homo sapiens. Apparently they had women and even children running around joining in the hunt and getting mauled by wild animals whereas the homo sapien females were staying near the campsites not dying from these types of things.
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Re: The Return of Patriarchy

Unread postby bshirt » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 18:25:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')Let me restate my original contention, that there is little evidence supporting Last_Historian's claim that there will be a "return to patriarchy."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', ' ')What I am suggesting is that women will have more power in terms of participating in decision-making than they have had heretofore. As the structures that have permitted men to "rule" their nuclear families through their breadwinner status break down, there will be a new equilibrium of power-sharing, and it will be tending towards women having more power. (Simply because up until recently, they have uniformly had less) I think this is relatively uncontroversial and well-supported by the available evidence. After all, any time there is an imbalance in power, there will be counter-acting forces causing a re-balancing of that power. That patriarchy lasted so long is quite amazing in my view, but as far as I can tell, it is coming to an end.


That has a mathematical and statistical zero chance of happening in the near future.

On the contrary, the overwhelming vast majority of cushy govn jobs (that require zero competence or market demand & satisfaction) are staffed by women. Public schools, 10,000 different state and federal funded social programs, etc, will surely not survive much longer.

That women will be the future "breadwinners" is total hogwash of the highest order as the current welfare state is quickly dying. What will be needed is people who can really "do something". Mechanical, Electrical and Chemical engineers (completely dominated by men) will be in far, far higher demand than any social worker/tenured school teacher/govn hack.

We'll see who is correct and soon......
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