[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', ' ')evolution has been an utter waste of time; we should have stayed harmless alopecian monkeys.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I') will not become a war lover/ worshipper of violence like you seem to be.

[SeaGypsy]

I really don't give a hoot what miserable so called realists think or if they are a majority or any of that. I also don't have a lot of time for stoned out lazy so called hippies.
I very deliberately chose my wife and she feels the same about me; we have a daughter. There are an infinite number of reasons we should never have met, but we did. So the premise we have no control over our genes means precisely nothing to me.
Post modern existential semantics being used to deny the reality of others experience because it doesn't match ones own experience.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')our hairsplitting bores me.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'W')hat I disagree with, is the tacit assumption made, that whichever gender happens to be best suited to the role of infantryman has any additional claim to the leadership roles within a community based upon that gender. Nothing you have stated lends any support to such an assertion.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '[')i]weird mix of idiotic assumptions, violent chest-thumping, and new age nonsense

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I') will not become a war lover/ worshipper of violence like you seem to be.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')I support the Second Amendment, the original intent of which was to distribute the power of violence as widely as possible in order to prevent tyranny.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')I support the Second Amendment, the original intent of which was to distribute the power of violence as widely as possible in order to prevent tyranny.

[culicomorpha]

Well this thread has gone pretty far astray from the original argument.

Let me restate my original contention, that there is little evidence supporting Last_Historian's claim that there will be a "return to patriarchy."

As far as I can tell, nobody has really challenged that point. There has been a lot of arguing over which is the "superior" gender, an argument I think is as pointless as it is stupid. None of you has the remotest knowledge of me, or what my background and perspective is on this topic. I am certainly not a "feminist" and frankly, I abhor many of the claims feminists make. I especially grate at their claim that "biology is not destiny," as if the differences between men and women simply don't exist. I don't believe that at all. I agree with many of the points made about male physical strength, and would go further, but I would be equally emphatic about strengths that women bring, despite the fact that some men here evidently think that women are little more than chattel.

I don't intend to minimize the differences between genders - on the contrary. I think that both men and women bring different things to the table, and that in a post-peak world, we will need both in order to make it through the difficult transition ahead.

But that is not the same thing as saying that "men are superior and will rule the world," or that "women are superior and will rule the world." When I stated that inner city violence is not a "good model," what I meant was that the context of the inner city does not apply to most other contexts, particularly distributed communities, meaning that as a model it simply does not offer much in the way of predictive power.

As to arguments that ICs have up to this point been largely abysmal failures, I have no argument. I have a friend that made a very perceptive observation that most of the people who get involved in ICs are strong personalities, have definite philosophical beliefs, and can be difficult to live with. What she noted was that the missing piece in many ICs is the "glue" that holds tribes together, namely people who aren't so strong, don't have rigid philosophical positions, and who are relatively easy to live with. These people for now are largely ignorant of the coming changes, but when they are forced by circumstance to find other arrangements for survival, they may well be the glue that enables ICs to thrive and develop into real viable communities.

But at the end of the day, I'm just not seeing much in the way of evidence suggesting that there will be a "return to patriarchy." Men and women may well have different roles, or there may be significant overlapping of roles. What I am suggesting is that women will have more power in terms of participating in decision-making than they have had heretofore. As the structures that have permitted men to "rule" their nuclear families through their breadwinner status break down, there will be a new equilibrium of power-sharing, and it will be tending towards women having more power. (Simply because up until recently, they have uniformly had less) I think this is relatively uncontroversial and well-supported by the available evidence. After all, any time there is an imbalance in power, there will be counter-acting forces causing a re-balancing of that power. That patriarchy lasted so long is quite amazing in my view, but as far as I can tell, it is coming to an end.

[Ayame]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')Let me restate my original contention, that there is little evidence supporting Last_Historian's claim that there will be a "return to patriarchy."

[Ayame]

I must also say that I'm losing patience with the people saying that women can shoot just like men, work nearly as good as men etc. Yes I'm not denying they can do these things. I mean I was watching the vancouver snowboard half-pipe on TV yesterday and though the women don't get as high as the men they still perform some sweet tricks. In laboratory conditions women can nearly work as hard as men, can shoot just as well if not better but the problem is post peak oil society is not going to take place in laboratory settings. For one, as access to medicine declines so does access to contraception. Women are going to be spending more time being pregnant and child rearing by default because you can bet no one is going to stop having sex just because of peak oil. Therefore men are going to have to take up the slack while women are busy doing these things. Haven't you ever asked yourselves why Indian and chinese societies prefer sons to daughters? It's because the men traditionally support the family group (including grandparents) by doing the bulk of the agricultural work while the women tended the family. So however much a women would like to be a gun slinging plough pushing she-farmer she will be limited by her natural role as mother and child rearer.

Also I am a bit incredulous about the concept of 'choosing a social organisation'. As far as I know at no point in history have people sat down and democratically decided if they were going to be a patriarchy or matricarchy or agriculturists or nomads or hunter gatheres etc. It was all determined by necessity or by the people holding power in society. The underclass just had to suck up the outcome whether they liked it or not.

[culicomorpha]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')Let me restate my original contention, that there is little evidence supporting Last_Historian's claim that there will be a "return to patriarchy."

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '[')i]weird mix of idiotic assumptions, violent chest-thumping, and new age nonsense

[culicomorpha]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'I') must also say that I'm losing patience with the people saying that women can shoot just like men, work nearly as good as men etc.

[Tanada]

Here is the question I ask myself frequently.

I work with teenagers regularly who give every appearance of being technology dependent. That is to say they believe life revolves around txt messaging and it is much more important to them than keeping a job. How are these people going to function if the technology stops? A few days of blackout and the batteries in all those portable devices will be dead. What type of culture will they form or join up with?

I think from my observations that the bullies will take over, at least in the beginning. If they become entrenched you have "instant Patriarchy, just remove technology", which is certainly not the world I would choose to live in.

Sure the 'independent' women of their own generation and the older generations will object, but there have always been a number of females in any group willing to go along to get along. So long as there are enough of that type to keep the bullies supplied their organization will appear to be a success, and that will encourage imitators on the fringes to join in and make it stronger.

Ultimately it will be a cultural competition to discover which if any social structure works best in a low technology situation. I would like to believe that the egalitarian ideals many have expressed here will prevail, however history tells us just how unlikely that is to happen.

[SeaGypsy]

Nice post Tanada. My life experience though is that every dog (or bully) has his day. Also women often act out bullying behaviours.

[Ayame]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', ' ')I don't know about blood kinship being all that strong. It's easy to make the claim, but I know an awful lot of people who a) can't stand their relatives, b) have been disowned, or c) have moved so far away that the relationships are largely meaningless. Maybe in a post-peak world that will change, but I suspect that once those bonds are broken, many will not be reformed. Then again, I don't have much hope for humans making it out of this century, so my view is somewhat limited.

[Ayame]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'I') must also say that I'm losing patience with the people saying that women can shoot just like men, work nearly as good as men etc.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I') will not become a war lover/ worshipper of violence like you seem to be.