by Loki » Tue 16 Feb 2010, 22:15:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hat I mean is the return to the egalitarianism of the band society - men and women with equal rights, power, and social authority. However one wants to phrase it.
Hmmm, I think we're on different pages. I don't think this is likely. Assuming a thorough economic collapse, I think a clan system is far more likely. Clans are not egalitarian. AFAIK, true egalitarianism was pretty much limited to very small hunter-gatherer groups.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')C tend to fail because they are based on ideology instead of mutual support. Mutual support is thicker than anything. If we both need each other for survival, it doesn't matter if we're related. After all, I'm not related to my husband, but I support him in preference to my sister and father, to whom I am related by blood.
Yes, but you're still "related" to him by marriage. Intentional communities have an abysmal success record, right up there with fusion. Based on this empirical evidence, it does not appear to me to be a successful approach.
Not to say mutual aid societies won't make a comeback. I was just reading
a post on this on the Archdruid's blog (just discovered this guy, great insights despite fruity New Age stuff). These are not intentional communities, at least not as I understand the term, i.e., communal living situation involving a group of unrelated people.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ithout energy slaves we'll have to do whatever work we're able to do whatever our gender. If a woman is a better artisan than a man, that will probably be her task. If you look at different cultures, there's a lot of variation in what is considered whose "sphere." In some cultures men do certain crafts, but not women, and vice versa. I'm sure each community will develop its own traditions.
Yes, some variation interculturally, though I've only heard rumor of one or two HG societies where the women were the primary hunters and the men the primary gatherers, and wouldn't surprise me if there was some confusion among the anthropologists on this one. In 99.9% of the cases, men did most of the hunting and fishing (and almost all the big game hunting), women gathered and engaged in small-scale horticulture. Men made the tools they used for hunting, women made the tools they used for gathering and food prep. Men did the vast majority of the fighting, women did the vast majority of the child rearing.
This universal gender-based distribution of labor lasted 100,000+ years. So seems to have worked OK, and usually in much harder times than we will face in the next century. How "egalitarian" it was depends in part on what your definition of that term is, though there was certainly a wide variation in how much men's and women's work was valued relative to each other.
A garden will make your rations go further.
by Loki » Wed 17 Feb 2010, 02:10:03
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')Blood is thicker than ideology.
Don't be so sure about that. For instance, in my family, my sister and my cousin don't speak to each other. <snip>
Yes, but we have the
luxury of having nothing to do with our families now. Should civilization go tits up, most of us won't have this choice anymore. The isolated nuclear family is likely to go the way of the dodo. Not fit for survival.
A garden will make your rations go further.
by Ayame » Wed 17 Feb 2010, 03:58:54
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')So not "matriarchy" or "patriarchy," but a return to more traditional forms of social organization? I agree, if this is what you mean.
What I mean is the return to the egalitarianism of the band society - men and women with equal rights, power, and social authority. However one wants to phrase it.
Going by my research bands and tribes were more egalitarian than agricultural societies however there is a wide continuum of egality in bands. I have read that even though native american women had control over the tipi etc. they were used as pack animals by the men. Same with the aboriginies who also overtly gang-raped and shared women. The I-Kung actively promote wife beating. That said some hunter gatherer bands can be quite egalitarian such as the Hadza.
by bshirt » Wed 17 Feb 2010, 04:51:21
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')Blood is thicker than ideology.
Don't be so sure about that. For instance, in my family, my sister and my cousin don't speak to each other. <snip>
Yes, but we have the
luxury of having nothing to do with our families now. Should civilization go tits up, most of us won't have this choice anymore. The isolated nuclear family is likely to go the way of the dodo. Not fit for survival.
Hmmm.....that's a good point.
The upside is that many family members very well might even learn to appreciate their family since they might be prosper and/or be alive solely due to them.
There's obvious downsides to that too but relative to the govt/TPTB being the security of so many currently (that cannot last long anyway) it sounds like an excellent trade to me all things considered.
That way, at least you would really know who's on your side and who isn't. No more hiding behind mindless bureaucracy.
by SeaGypsy » Wed 17 Feb 2010, 11:48:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Among such groups the deepest need is not for power but for peace and communion within the group. The male and female centers of authority are those most able to nurture the deepest desires of the group.
So you don't agree with the proposition often put forth here at po.com that people really just want superiority over others?
You have a real gift Ludi. Succintness. Yes that is the essence of my post and my life experience. If that competition is really where humanity is heading the evolution has been an utter waste of time; we should have stayed harmless alopecian monkeys.
by Ludi » Wed 17 Feb 2010, 13:40:57
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Making stuff and growing food?
Generally speaking, women today don't know how to do that either.
100% agree. Like I said earlier we've most of us become parasites.
by AgentR » Wed 17 Feb 2010, 14:07:49
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')our other statement is just hair splitting. No functional difference whatsoever. Not sure why you bothered to post it.
Not sure why you bother to post stuff concerning organized military operations. Its not even remotely relevant to whether or not gender roles will prove to be decisive in determining which person happens to end up in the lead role in a community or nation.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')omen simply aren't as effective as men at organized violence, physically or psychologically. This is as obvious as the day is long. It's also overwhelmingly supported by the historical record.
The problem is you think I am asserting something I am not. I am not addressing, nor do I give two cents about whether women are as effective as men at organized violence specifically in the context of a military/paramilitary group. I've asserted nothing to suggest such a thing, and frankly think its a dumb question at its core.
What I have noted, and suggested, and illustrated, is that women are capable of delivering lethal violence to a large number of targets with very little difficulty.You have written absolutely nothing that contradicts my assertion, and in point of fact are so obsessed with discussing whether I've ever carried a combat infantry load; that you can't see the *FACT* that I have no where suggested women can serve as well as men in infantry combat roles.
Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
by Loki » Thu 18 Feb 2010, 01:40:01
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', ' ')evolution has been an utter waste of time; we should have stayed harmless alopecian monkeys.
A modern conceit is that we are in charge of our evolution. We are not. If one group magically rose above their genes and decided to be utterly peaceful (probably by neutering their men), they would be subjugated by their neighbors in a matter of weeks. We are a species of very nasty apes---natural selection is a heartless bitch.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '
')blah blah blah
Your hairsplitting bores me.
A garden will make your rations go further.
