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Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Jotapay » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 14:05:31

There's already an iPhone app where you can report on your neighbors for environmental 'crimes'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDs7gWO-ggU
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Homesteader » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 14:28:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hat problems has the state solved that weren't caused by the existence of states?
+1
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Pretorian » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 14:29:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'L')ast_Historian, whats the difference between Green Communism and Green Fascism?
Sorry have to bump this as apparently Last_Historian had missed this one somehow.

Meantime, a nice passage from " the Status Civilization" by Robert Sheckley
""Yes sir. Well, there are three men outside trying to kill me...."

"Quite right," Mr. Frendlyer said. "And today is Landing Day. You came off the ship that landed today, and have been classified a peon.... I'm happy to say that everything is in order. The Landing Day Hunt ends at sundown. You can leave here with the knowledge that everything is correct and that your rights have not been violated."

"Leave here? After sundown, you mean."

Mr. Frendlyer shook his head and smiled sadly. "I'm afraid not. According to the law you must leave here at once."

"But they'll kill me!"

"That's very true. Unfortunately it can't be helped. A victim by definition is one who is to be killed.... We protect rights, not victims."
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby davep » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 14:58:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Historian', 'T')he state, and any complex socio-political order for that matter, rests on two pillars: legitimacy and coercion.
Whatever its theoretical merits and evils, removing the state at this juncture is unrealistic and even impossible.
It is when the state starts crumbling that we need to have clear answers for a better future. These need to be prepared in advance. They won't necessarily require coercion.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')"We must save ourselves" is so vague as to be meaningless.
To solve problems of their environment, humans create structures of socio-political complexity, usually called "states" or "governments".
Otherwise, it's sauve qui peut.
Otherwise it could also be tribalism or anarchism. The latter would be based around local laws created through common consensus without the need for the heirarchies of state systems, and therefore bereft of the inherent corruption and greed associated with any form of state.

A lawful land doesn't necessarily need nor should it desire political complexity.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 15:36:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')or anarchism. The latter would be based around local laws created through common consensus without the need for the heirarchies of state systems, and therefore bereft of the inherent corruption and greed associated with any form of state.


Sorry, that ain't gonna happen. The default endpoint of collapse will be warlordism. Consensus will be based on he who carries the biggest stick in any particular region. This formula has played out time and time again throughout history. Sure, the hierarchy is flatter, but it's hierarchy nonetheless. You'll just exchange one flavor of misery for another, and I would argue that most would see things as worse rather than better.

Some people really need to let go of their post-collapse utopian fantasies. If we're going to have a better future, we're going to have to work at it. We're not going to have utopia handed to us through the natural progress of collapse.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby davep » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 15:38:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'S')ome people really need to let go of their post-collapse utopian fantasies. If we're going to have a better future, we're going to have to work at it. We're not going to have utopia handed to us through the natural progress of collapse.
It's hardly a fantasy. If the default socio-political situation is Warlordism you could equally say that the default personal situation is zombie-ism. We prepare for the latter, so why not the former?
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 15:54:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')It's hardly a fantasy.


Then show me where happy anarchists are enjoying the collapse of their failed or failing states. Mexico? Yemen?
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby davep » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 16:09:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'I')t's hardly a fantasy.
Then show me where happy anarchists are enjoying the collapse of their failed or failing states. Mexico? Yemen?
The anarchists in Spain were doing great until the communists convinced them to put down their arms. There was also a thriving anarchist movement in Switzerland IIRC.

Basically, it's not a system that has been tried much, what with the political interest of those in power (although it could well have been the default setup for the majority of our history as a species). But it would be the best scenario for the future, so why not try to aim for it when the current system breaks down? Do it early enough and you could well have the shoots of an empowered citizenry.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby rangerone314 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 16:54:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'T')hen show me where happy anarchists are enjoying the collapse of their failed or failing states. Mexico? Yemen?
One could argue that those are necessary birth pains.

One could also argue the unpalatable form the collapse is taking is a result of bad decisions on the part of the states. (ex: Mexico cooperating with the US in the War on Drugs, despite it being largely American-demand-driven, and we try to fight the supply using a lot of Mexican blood)

I'm sure Rome collapsing wasn't fun but once the people who were taxed half-to-death had adjusted, they no longer had the burden of supporting a terminally ill state. I come to think like with old people in hospitals, the most expensive portion of maintenance comes right before the death throes of a state.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Ludi » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 16:57:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'O')therwise it could also be tribalism or anarchism. The latter would be based around local laws created through common consensus without the need for the heirarchies of state systems, and therefore bereft of the inherent corruption and greed associated with any form of state. A lawful land doesn't necessarily need nor should it desire political complexity.
How will the tribalists or anarchists avoid or deal with the problem of warlordism? I guess what I'm wondering is, will there be enough tribalists or anarchists to band together to keep the warlords away? Is tribalism or anarchy attractive enough to overcome the (seemingly) prevailing preference for warlordism?
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 17:22:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')I'm sure Rome collapsing


The dark ages wasn't anarchism. It was feudalism.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby rangerone314 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 17:30:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'T')he dark ages wasn't anarchism. It was feudalism.
Feudalism wasn't instantaneous.

I was refering to people in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Rome.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 17:42:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')why not try to aim for it when the current system breaks down? Do it early enough and you could well have the shoots of an empowered citizenry.


So you get ten people in a room, post-collapse. 5 of them are neocons. The other 5 are latte liberals. They really want to follow your anarchist ideals. The problem is there is no common ground. Meanwhile, people are at risk of starving. Something's got to be done. What happens is the boldest person steps forward and tries to strong-arm the rest to go along with them whether they like it or not. It's lord of the flies or a bad reality show, basically. What I'm saying is that your ideals break down in the face of a highly heterogeneous public. At the very least, you'll wind up with balkanization as everyone "votes with their feet" into one walled off enclave or another of monolithic thought.

What we're starting with, on the way down, is hyper-individualism. You have people who LOOOVE to be the fly in other people's ointment. Go read any news article off google news and what will really stand out more than the article itself is the talkback at the bottom. Like if you have a climate change piece, and the bottom will be flooded with climategate denialist spam. You can't get attention unless you disagree. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, basically.

So you tell me where all this consensus is going to come from, because I don't see it. I don't see any desire for people to change their minds, listen to dissent, or meet each other halfway.

I see 300 million people in the US, all of which feel entitled to spew out their own personalized rants that the world isn't progressing exactly according to their own whims. 300 million back-seat drivers, perpetually annoyed, enraged, disappointed, fearful, mistrustful. All blogging and twittering away in their own sense of inflated self-importance.

Image

And you're telling me that when all the lines of authority dissolve that this is a recipe for utopia???
Last edited by mos6507 on Thu 28 Jan 2010, 17:53:25, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 17:50:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')I was refering to people in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Rome.


From what I've read, there was never any true anarchy after Rome fell. Someone was always in charge, even though that force tended to change like musical chairs as one group steamrolled over the other group, especially in England.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby davep » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 19:32:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '[')How will the tribalists or anarchists avoid or deal with the problem of warlordism? I guess what I'm wondering is, will there be enough tribalists or anarchists to band together to keep the warlords away? Is tribalism or anarchy attractive enough to overcome the (seemingly) prevailing preference for warlordism?
The same way anyone else would, i.e. have enough guns to make it an unwise choice to attack.

Why would Warlordism necessarily be a prevailing preference if you do manage to establish an oasis of Anarchism?
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby davep » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 19:39:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'S')o you get ten people in a room, post-collapse. 5 of them are neocons. The other 5 are latte liberals. They really want to follow your anarchist ideals. The problem is there is no common ground. --snip--
And you're telling me that when all the lines of authority dissolve that this is a recipe for utopia???
Maybe it's different in the US. I don't see the people in France dividing along such ridiculously ideological and irrelevant lines.

If the people are faced with the stark choices ahead of them, then grouping together and deciding how they will run their community together can become empowering. It's not about neocons and liberals, it's about individuals working together for the common good, with no liberals or neocons making irrelevant decisions above them.

I live in a rural area with the ability to sustain itself and then some. In this kind of environment, I think an Anarchist approach is feasible. You may want to give it a different name where you live so as not to unsettle the locals.

But if you're not thinking on this level you are wasting your time prepping, as you will eventually submit to the local Warlord, or die trying.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Ludi » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 20:09:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'W')hy would Warlordism necessarily be a prevailing preference if you do manage to establish an oasis of Anarchism?
I don't know. Some folks here at po.com seem to think warlordism is just what people do, or want to do, or do no matter what. Or something. 8O

So the anarchists and tribalists need to make sure they are more heavily armed than the warlords? That seems like a tall order. :?
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Ludi » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 20:16:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', ' ')It's not about neocons and liberals, it's about individuals working together for the common good
Politics has simply never come up between us and the neighbors. We seem to find other things to talk about. Religion doesn't come up either, except they asked if we'd like to say the grace at dinner last time we visited. We declined.

We don't shove our politics or religion in the neighbors' faces, so maybe that's why it isn't an issue. My politics and religion has never once been an issue in dealing with any of our neighbors. Everyone knows my husband's politics, as he is the alternate precinct judge. It's just not an issue. Hasn't been for over ten years.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Last_Historian » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 20:59:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'C')urious to know how you will overthrow the current state to implement the Green Communist state.
I will not be overthrowing any state any time soon. First, I see myself as a theorist, not an activist. Second, in any case the necessary conditions for any such revolution to succeed are not in place, and probably won't be in place for another 20 years or so.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hat problems has the state solved that weren't caused by the existence of states?

"Problems" such as the desire for scope expansion / increasing the carrying capacity to accommodate rising populations, the need for defense, etc, is what contributed to the rise of states in the first place.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Praetorian', 'L')ast_Historian, whats the difference between Green Communism and Green Fascism? Sorry have to bump this as apparently Last_Historian had missed this one somehow.

Your inability to read carefully or use your browser's search function is not my problem.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I')'m sure Rome collapsing wasn't fun but once the people who were taxed half-to-death had adjusted, they no longer had the burden of supporting a terminally ill state. I come to think like with old people in hospitals, the most expensive portion of maintenance comes right before the death throes of a state.

That is correct. The post-Roman collapse peoples actually indicated better nutrition, etc, albeit also lower levels of culture. According to Tainter, collapse becomes near inevitable when the benefits from high complexity exceed the costs of maintaining them.

That said, I believe that as of today, those benefits are still substantially higher than the costs, and action must be taken quickly so as to make sure the costs trend towards a flat asymptote rather than veer into runaway growth (e.g. artificially reducing living standards today so as to prevent long-term pollution overload). That is one of the main purposes of the Green Communist state.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'H')ow will the tribalists or anarchists avoid or deal with the problem of warlordism? I guess what I'm wondering is, will there be enough tribalists or anarchists to band together to keep the warlords away? Is tribalism or anarchy attractive enough to overcome the (seemingly) prevailing preference for warlordism?
One you "band" up and manage to keep the warlords away, I suspect there will be a certain temptation to become warlords yourselves. I will bet that a few years of hard life marked by constant toil, disappointments, deaths, etc, will make modern day ethics go out of the window.

Or look at it from another perspective. Yes, you *can* "band together". But then you'll need to devote time to training, to scavenging or manufacturing arms, etc. But this will cut into the time you can devote to food production or preserving knowledge or a myriad of other pressing issues. Warlord bands are specialized in what they do (raiding/ racketeering), and it will be far cheaper for you to pay them off with tribute, and this will put you in a state of dependency on them. After all, the first kings and nobles were all essentially just the most successful racketeers! :|
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') don't know. Some folks here at po.com seem to think warlordism is just what people do, or want to do, or do no matter what. Or something.
I agree that that is a fallacy, but it does have a grain of truth. The 2% of the population who *are* psychos do become warlords, and eventually one of them emerges supreme and rules with an iron fist. That's the natural outcome of anarchic systems with no rule of law.
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Re: Politics: We need to embrace Green Communism

Postby Ludi » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 21:12:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Historian', '
')I agree that that is a fallacy, but it does have a grain of truth. The 2% of the population who *are* psychos do become warlords, and eventually one of them emerges supreme and rules with an iron fist. That's the natural outcome of anarchic systems with no rule of law.


I'm wondering how that psycho rules without help from a lot of other psychos. One person can't take over if many oppose him, he needs support from his fellow psychos.

All human societies have some kind of rules of behavior, not necessarily "laws." So I don't know if there could be a "natural outcome of anarchic systems with no rule of law." A bunch of individuals acting independently is not a "system" so you can't actually have an "anarchic system with no rule of law." Such a thing simply can't and doesn't exist, as far as I can tell. You can't call it a "system," certainly.
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