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THE Water Quality Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: NPR: Your drinking water includes sterilants, hormones

Postby The_Virginian » Fri 01 Jan 2010, 16:02:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Virginian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('2cher', 'M')aking the world infertile sounds like the best damn news for the planet that I have ever heard.


anti-human.



"2cher" should volunteer to go first, else stop the useless chatter.


If he will volontier to go first he wont be able to help you out , will he? So its not that useless afetr all



Exactly. He want others to either die or not be born because he is selfish and a wants to control others.
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Re: NPR: Your drinking water includes sterilants, hormones

Postby Pretorian » Fri 01 Jan 2010, 16:20:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Virginian', '
')Exactly. He want others to either die or not be born because he is selfish and a wants to control others.



Which makes him human. Have you thought he was an alien previously? In other news, the sky is blue, and the grass is green.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Golgo13 » Fri 22 Jan 2010, 15:38:02

Hopefully they'll pay to treat your children for fluorosis damage caused by mass medicating everyone via. unregulated dosage in the public water supply.

As for me, I stopped drinking tap water a long time ago.

Kids Eat Too Much Fluoride From Foods, Studies Show

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ew York -- February 17, 2009 -- Kids ingest excessive fluoride, studies show, not just from toothpaste, but from their foods, making water fluoridation unnecessary and unsafe.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')luoride ingestion overdose or dental fluorosis is a huge American problem with up to 48% of school children sporting dental fluorosis, according to the Centers for Disease Control.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is why the American Dental Association and the CDC now advise that infant formula not be mixed with fluoridated water and the fluoride supplement schedule will be lowered, or maybe abandoned, this year.


Seems like the answer to this epidemic would be less goddamn fluoride - i.e. take it out of the water supply. Doing that would remove much of it from other foods and drinks as well since they get their fluoride content from the public water supply and be a large step in preventing this damage.

This just relays what critics have been saying all along - that using the public water supply as a vehicle for mass medication is bad science. When fluoride is in all the water, it ends up in everything that water comes in contact with and there's effectively no way to regulate the dose. Different levels of exposure will affect different people in different ways.

Japan has a depression and suicide epidemic, but the answer isn't to put antidepressants in the water supply of all their major cities.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Fri 22 Jan 2010, 16:21:21

I just finished my atmospheric water condenser which will supply me with my drinking water. I started a thread about it a month or two ago. It's not that difficult really, just get an LG dehumidifier at Home Depot and a Berkey Water Filter. The Berkey will filter out any airborne particulates and 95% of any small amount of aluminum that comes off the condenser fins with the condensed water. Aluminum isn't really soluble so it should be a very small amount, we drink acidic soda from aluminum cans which people seem to be fine with. So you get virtually pure water this way. Total cost: $516 plus glass jugs.

I'm going to get this water tested at a local lab for metals, organics and total dissolved solids. I'll post the results here when they're done.

I actually do feel quite a bit more "awake" this week; I haven't felt tired or lethargic at all. I haven't had to make any coffee in the morning, which I normally drink every day.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Jan 2010, 23:33:03

Wonderful. I see no discussion of water is complete here until flouride comes up.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 00:00:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'W')onderful. I see no discussion of water is complete here until flouride comes up.
Ad hom deleted Hey genius, the EPA states fluoride is toxic at 6 mg/L and Austin's water has 5 mg/L. Public shows of arrogant ignoance are really classy, Mos. Not to mention that since the fluoride is a industrial waste by-product from carbon scrubbers at factories, there are all sorts of other nasties in the fluoride that is sold to Austin water supply, like Barium, a heavy metal. Austin's Barium content is above the safe level, due to the fluoride being sourced from industrial waste.

Ad homs deleted. Shame on you. How irresponsible from a "progressive".
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby polka » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 01:05:38

Flouride is a naturally occuring ion in pretty much any water that has passed through rocks and soil.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby pablonite » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 01:22:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('polka', 'F')louride is a naturally occuring ion in pretty much any water that has passed through rocks and soil.

The naturally occuring flouride in the water supply is not a threat since the levels are so low, besides, being natural we evolved with it. The topping up with a waste product from manufaturing to fight tooth decay is the problem here. Flouride works best when you don't ingest it, even that is in doubt. The city of Vancouver has never flouridated it's water supply and guess what?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4436629.html
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he invention relates to a method for recovering useable products from waste products deriving from the manufacture of aluminium fluoride on the basis of aluminium hydroxide and fluosilicic acid. Silica contaminated with fluorine and aluminium and obtained in the manufacture of aluminium fluoride is dissolved with a strongly basic hydroxide, whereafter the first solution obtained is mixed with a second solution, obtained by dissolving aluminium hydroxide with a strongly basic hydroxide, and with waste mother liquor and optionally also washing water from the manufacture of aluminium fluoride, in such proportions that the pH-value of the mixture is from about 10-14. The silicate content of the waste products supplied is precipitated as a silicoaluminate, which is separated off, preferably by filtration, for optional further treatment or for direct use, whereafter fluorine, when present in the waste products, is recovered from filtrate by further precipitation, and whereafter the filtrate is passed to a recipient or utilized, for example, as process water in other processes. The fluorine content can be recovered from the filtrate by adding thereto an aluminium compound in an amount sufficient to precipitate out substantially all the fluorine contained in the filtrate as a fluoroaluminate respectively, which is then separated off.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 01:27:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('polka', 'F')louride is a naturally occuring ion in pretty much any water that has passed through rocks and soil.


Not necessarily, unless there were evaporites in the matrix of the sedimentary rock. Geologist here. What's your point? What does that have to do with stated and known toxicity?

Also, if you know anything about evaporites, they are deposited in what you call "salt flats" or "tidal pools". There are tons of hard minerals (Ca, Mg, Fl, S). The water is very acidic and has tons of TDS (total dissolved solids) which will form a calcic precipitate once they crystalize out of solution. Those are not the places where you want to source your drinking water. If you want to do it, go ahead, one less useless eater in the world.
Last edited by Jotapay on Sat 23 Jan 2010, 01:38:22, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 01:30:38

If you want a 5 minute education on Fluorine, here you go. This page is pretty good.

http://www.globenet.org/preceup/pages/a ... ndme_d.htm
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby polka » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 01:51:39

My point is simply what I said. Those watching from home should understand that flouride has always been in drinking water and it is not JUST an industrial byproduct, as could be construed from your post.

Different locations will treat flouride differently--some adding it to drinking water, while others with higher occuring concentrations having to treat it out of drinking water.

While we're stating occupations, I have a degree in civil engineering and have taken design classes in water/wastewater treatment (though that is not an area that I have actually done any real work in).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'H')ey genius, the EPA states fluoride is toxic at 6 mg/L and Austin's water has 5 mg/L.


So from your statement above, Austin's water is at a non-toxic level. Do you expect them to expend the cost to treat it to zero?
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 02:17:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('polka', 'M')y point is simply what I said. Those watching from home should understand that flouride has always been in drinking water and it is not JUST an industrial byproduct, as could be construed from your post.



Complete crap and an outright lie. Define "always". You need to distinguish between trace natural amounts and 5 mg/L which are artificially introduced in many US cities. 25% of America does not fluoridate their water, so how does this reconcile with what you said. Europe does not fluoridate their water either.

Get your facts straight next time.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 02:33:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('polka', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', 'H')ey genius, the EPA states fluoride is toxic at 6 mg/L and Austin's water has 5 mg/L.


So from your statement above, Austin's water is at a non-toxic level. Do you expect them to expend the cost to treat it to zero?



You would know that toxicity is based on the principle of a sliding scale as a toxic substance doesn't cease to be toxic when there is 1 less milligram per liter in solution. Symptoms of toxicity still manifest themselves, just not as severely and as frequently.. The EPA must draw a line in the sand somewhere and say, "No more!" and label 6 mg/L as toxic. They are making a value judgment balancing the needs of industry and the public good. That doesn't mean that 5 mg/L isn't toxic, it means that it would harm industry and other factors too much to further protect the public health by lowering the allowed limit. However, physical symptoms of toxicity will still manifest themselves at lower concentrations, only just slight less so.

A compound with a known toxicity, or is a known carcinogen, or is known to cause birth defects will still be allowed into products. For example, at lower concentrations, a compound will cause 1 in 10,000 birth defects or cases of cancer. At a slightly higher concentration, it will cause 1 in 1,000 birth defects or cases or cancer. The EPA will decide to allow the toxic compound like toluene, dioxin, fluoride or barium into the product and release it to the public at the lower concentration so that it will cause 1 in 10,000 cases of cancer and not 1 in 1,000 because that is more reasonable to them., but it is still present and will still cause cancer/birth defects/toxic side effects. Fluoride is still toxic at 5 mg/L, but they allow fluoride in the water at 5 mg/L and not 6, because that is the arbitrary line the EPA set. And if you read my link Polka, Fluorine is actually toxic at 1.5 mg/L, quite a bit less than what the EPA has conveniently determined we can absorb.

I can't believe I have to explain relative toxicity and how EPA measurements are set to a civil engineer. Did you not learn that in your environmental engineering class? I took environmental engineering with a bunch of civil engineers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('polka', 'D')o you expect them to expend the cost to treat [fluoride] to zero?


Austin added the fluoride to the water themselves. Just don't add it.
Last edited by Jotapay on Sat 23 Jan 2010, 12:38:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Pretorian » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 02:56:22

hey Jota so do you drink bottlled water( any concerns with plastic content? fake spring water?), you hunt for your own or what?
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby polka » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 03:04:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '[')size=150]AUSTIN ADDED THE FLUORIDE TO THE WATER THEMSELVES. JUST DON'T ADD IT![/size] Jesus, I feel like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids.


Since I attended a 3rd rate college, and you're a scientist, maybe you can explain in what way I'm reading this table wrong: http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/whatsinthewater.htm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Substance
(Sampled for in 2008 unless noted differently):
Fluoride (ppm)

Highest Level Allowed
(EPA MCL):
4

City of Austin
Drinking Water:
Low 0.11
High 1.25
Average .75

Ideal Goals:
(EPA's MCLG)
< 4

Possible Sources:
Natural geology, supplement



*Yawn* I'm going to bed.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby dukey » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 06:15:44

There is a big difference between the calcium fluoride found naturally and the sodium fluorosilicates they add to your water. Neither are needed by your body, and one is extremely dangerous to consume.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')luorides are toxic to humans, however CaF2 is considered relatively harmless due to its extreme insolubility.


Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_fluoride#Safety
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Niagara » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 08:00:13

I don't understand how toxicity can be defined by the concentration in the water. Supposedly 6mg/L is toxic but 5mg/L is ok.

I don't get it. Shouldn't toxicity be determined by total consumption in mg?

Example:

Our water is at the "safe" level of 5mg/L.
I drink 10 250 mL glasses of water so I take in 10* .25 * 5 = 12.5g of the stuff

Is that not worse than drinking 8 glasses of "unsafe" 6mg/L water? That would work out to 8*.25*6=12g of fluoride.


Or what if I make soup with tapwater. The water boils down so the conc. of fluoride would easily rise to unsafe levels.

I guess they consider what's safe for the "average" person. (The "average" person has one breast and one testicle.)
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 10:40:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('polka', 'S')ince I attended a 3rd rate college, and you're a scientist, maybe you can explain in what way I'm reading this table wrong: http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/whatsinthewater.htm


I get a little frustrated when you present so many studies, evidence and facts, and someone says, "So what do you want them to do, spend the money to remove it all?", which is ridiculous and not the point.

This is the page I was using as my source but it looks like it doesn't exist any more for some reason. The current page for Austin water quality curiously doesn't mention anything about heavy metals, which the original one did.
http://www.ewg.org/tapwater/yourwater/s ... =TX2270001

Remember that fluorosilicic acid contains more than just fluorine so it's mass will be greater than just fluorine, obviously. This is a good study to read about fluorsilicic acid, where it comes from, toxicity levels and how it is absorbed into the body:
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Che ... icates.pdf
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Jotapay » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 10:46:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'h')ey Jota so do you drink bottlled water( any concerns with plastic content? fake spring water?), you hunt for your own or what?


I was also concerned about hormones and prescription drugs in the Austin water supply, not just TDS and metals. I actually pull my water out of the air from the humidity. I've been drinking it all week and it's great. I don't feel lethargic and haven't had to drink coffee in the morning to wake up.

It was pretty easy to set up. Use a dehumidifier and then a Berkey water filter. The other options were either to distill the water or use a compressor and bleedoff valve like Truecougarblue recommended in this thread.
http://peakoil.com/planning/diy-atmosph ... 56723.html

I am going to get my dehumidified water tested at the state laboratory here for TDS and metals soon. I'll post the results once they are done.
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Re: US drinking water is toxic, public too brain damaged to care

Postby Ludi » Sat 23 Jan 2010, 11:07:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'h')ey Jota so do you drink bottlled water( any concerns with plastic content? fake spring water?), you hunt for your own or what?


I was also concerned about hormones and prescription drugs in the Austin water supply, not just TDS and metals. I actually pull my water out of the air from the humidity. I've been drinking it all week and it's great. I don't feel lethargic and haven't had to drink coffee in the morning to wake up.

It was pretty easy to set up. Use a dehumidifier and then a Berkey water filter. The other options were either to distill the water or use a compressor and bleedoff valve like Truecougarblue recommended in this thread.
http://peakoil.com/planning/diy-atmosph ... 56723.html

I am going to get my dehumidified water tested at the state laboratory here for TDS and metals soon. I'll post the results once they are done.



Keep in mind everyone reacts differently to chemicals/toxins, so some people might feel just fine drinking toxic city water, whereas others will show signs of poisoning (such as fatigue and lethargy). 8O Some people are so sensitive to toxic chemicals they can barely function in the modern world at all, but most people will fall somewhere in between just fine and non-functional. Considering the enormous load of toxins most people are exposed to now (which we aren't adapted to), it's no wonder so many people have symptoms of depression, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, etc. :(
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