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Food Is Too Cheap

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Ludi » Sun 17 Jan 2010, 18:10:33

In ye olden days of pioneers here in my region, people used to cut down the pecan trees to get at the pecans nuts because the nuts were so valuable to sell.

Was that knowledge of the value of a pecan nut, or was it ignorant short-sighted greed? The trees were cheap, but the nuts were expensive.

I see in this kind of thread people bitching about the fat, ignorant, wasteful poor. Like, let's blame the poor for the ills of our society, when the behavior of the poor is a symptom of a larger problem. Most people in our society (in the US) aren't poor, so why single out the poor?
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Revi » Sun 17 Jan 2010, 22:00:16

Cheap food has been a policy for a long time.

It bankrupts farmers and costs taxpayers.

I am not saying we should stop feeding the poor, but this cheap food policy may not be sustainable.

http://www.coopdirectory.org/salt001.htm
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby MarkJ » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 07:57:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'T')he fact is, if food or any other resource wasn't so cheap, people would value them more. Same with gasoline, if you want to choose another resource.
Insert cheap, free or subsidized product or service here. <____________>

If something is cheap, free or subsidized, people tend to waste it. Many of our HEAP and Emergency HEAP customers waste heating oil, kerosene and propane like crazy since it's free.

Many need insulation, weatherization, boilers, zoning and controls, but as long as taxpayers are subsidizing their fuel usage, they'll continue wasting fuel. Although many qualify for free furnace replacement, boiler replacement or weatherization, many would rather have the free fuel.

Even if households didn't receive food stamps, WIC, school lunches and food bank supplements, food is still very affordable since their incomes and other expenses are buffered through low income taxation, zero income taxation, $X,000.000 tax refunds (credits), low property taxation, zero property taxation, STAR, unemployment, multiple unemployment extensions, bankruptcy, disability, subsidized public/private housing, emergency shelters, HEAP, Emergency HEAP, Medicaid, daycare assistance, lifeline phone, free cellular phones/minutes, transportation assistance, transit lines, free furnace/boiler maintenance/repairs/replacement, winterization/weatherization assistance, home improvement assistance, local and private assistance, or assistance from family and friends.

Food prices are also buffered by loss leaders, coupons and others that pay for over-consumption and waste.

The other day I had a refrigeration service call at an all-you-can-eat buffet with a $5.95 lunch special. They were tossing huge plates of uneaten food in the garbage. The people that eat very little (my wife and daughters for example) are effectively subsidizing the costs of the customers wasting 3/4/5/6 plates of food.

The same applies to fast food joints with dollar or sub dollar menus. The people buying soda, fries, full priced menu items and full priced meals are subsidizing the low priced and loss leader items.

There's also an incredible amount of food waste since portions are way too large. I'm a big guy, but I often don't eat half of my meal since the meals are too many calories to consume in a single meal. I consume many calories to support my body weight and activity level, but I generally eat 6 to 8 smaller meals per day.

One of our family businesses tosses literally tons of food, candy and beverages every year due to expiration dates, discontinued products, damage etc. Due to liability, you can't risk giving these products away, plus you need more security since these products are often stolen by employees from the warehouses, lines or dumpsters.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby VMarcHart » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 10:13:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') see in this kind of thread people bitching about the fat, ignorant, wasteful poor. Like, let's blame the poor for the ills of our society, when the behavior of the poor is a symptom of a larger problem. Most people in our society (in the US) aren't poor, so why single out the poor?
Please let me try to re-phrase my rant. I am not blaming the poor for being poor. I'm blaming the ignorant, regardless of account balance. A lot of well-to-do people are ignorant. Make that most of the well-to-do people are ignorant.

Ignorant of the value of food. Ignorant of the side effects of growing food. Ignorant of the side effects of wasting food.

This ignorance is spread through society, and I confess, including in my household. Society feeds pigeons in the park, rather than feed itself properly and to conserve the resources behind a loaf of bread. Food, gasoline, timber, electricity, water, pick virtually any important item, is so cheap even those earning $40K can afford to waste it. If a loaf of bread was $50, nobody, rich and poor would not let it go bad, and I bet everybody would still have enough to eat, nobody would die of starvation. People would just feel different about conserving.

I am not advocating skyrocketing prices to start a much needed powerdown. I'm advocating we need to educate 6.8B people, and the 2.2B projected people. Well, good luck with that, eh?
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby mcgowanjm » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 10:42:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'C')heap food has been a policy for a long time.

It bankrupts farmers and costs taxpayers.

I am not saying we should stop feeding the poor, but this cheap food policy may not be sustainable.

http://www.coopdirectory.org/salt001.htm


The flip side:

Food is too expensive. It has been since we've diverted
grain to ethanol.

The USDA must keep food plentiful for the cities and
the farmers growing it so food stamps and hidden subsidies.

Haiti is our food lab now. We're in the Seventh Day of
no food. A million will die.

The US food policy will lead to BK farmers and famine
starting March.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Ludi » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 11:19:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '
')The US food policy will lead to BK farmers and famine
starting March.



Can you go into a little more detail? Why March? By "famine" do you mean famine in the US? How will we know there is famine in the US? Will it be obvious?

Thanks.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby gnm » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 11:24:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')eah, lazy people should probably just starve to death. :|


That basically has always been mother natures plan... And has been the truth though eons of history. Its only recently that we have had the luxury of slacking...

-G
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Ludi » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 11:31:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')eah, lazy people should probably just starve to death. :|


That basically has always been mother natures plan... And has been the truth though eons of history. Its only recently that we have had the luxury of slacking...

-G



Not really. The average workday for hunter-gatherers is about 4 hours, compared to the average modern workday which is 8 - 10 hours. Slacking used to be our way of life.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby gnm » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 12:47:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')eah, lazy people should probably just starve to death. :|


That basically has always been mother natures plan... And has been the truth though eons of history. Its only recently that we have had the luxury of slacking...

-G



Not really. The average workday for hunter-gatherers is about 4 hours, compared to the average modern workday which is 8 - 10 hours. Slacking used to be our way of life.


'Touche. Yes that is interesting. But limited. It works well in favorable climates but you don't really see that in areas with winters. Certainly the American Indians had to bust ass to have enough food and firewood to see them through the winter.

-G
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby mcgowanjm » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 13:06:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '
')The US food policy will lead to BK farmers and famine
starting March.



Can you go into a little more detail? Why March? By "famine" do you mean famine in the US? How will we know there is famine in the US? Will it be obvious?

Thanks.


There's 54 million starving now. And obesity does count as starving.
As I stated, 23 million have been added to the US in the last decade.
13 of those in the Labor Force. No jobs created. Credit is being crushed for the Bottom 90%. Farmers aren't getting loans for the new crop after 1/2 the US declared an Ag disaster.
Meanwhile, like the Ukraine (plusses-corn,barley, wheat), we're shipping every soy bean we can find to China where a bu gets you $16.
All predicated on the US having a record harvest(see Jan 14's
outrageous crop report.

The grain is being mis allocated as a result. While doles (food
stamps, etc) are being based on a fraudulent BLS report.

By the end of March 2010, in the first Friday of April, the despair
of Flyover Country will be obvious to those who are looking.

Right now someone in DC's USDA is desperately watching
the Brazil/Argentine Crop progress.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Revi » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 14:33:37

I can't see food running terribly low by the end of March, but we did have a run on rice a couple of years ago, and the rice disappeared from the shelves.

If the same were to happen for wheat there would be real problems.

China can outbid the rest of the world for what there is.

China has always been the world's largest wheat producer, but they use almost all of it, so they've never been a big exporter.

If their crop goes badly then we have real problems.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby gnm » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 16:22:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'C')hina has always been the world's largest wheat producer, but they use almost all of it, so they've never been a big exporter.


No kidding? I always thought the USA and Canada were the biggest wheat producers. Don't we export a fair amount of wheat TO China and Russia?

-G
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby VMarcHart » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 16:25:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '.')..we did have a run on rice a couple of years ago, and the rice disappeared from the shelves.
I perfectly remember where I was 2 years ago, and 3 years ago too, and I cannot remember a rice shortage, whether short, prolonged or otherwise. Maybe in your neck of the woods, tho.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby gnm » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 17:16:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '.')..we did have a run on rice a couple of years ago, and the rice disappeared from the shelves.
I perfectly remember where I was 2 years ago, and 3 years ago too, and I cannot remember a rice shortage, whether short, prolonged or otherwise. Maybe in your neck of the woods, tho.


We had one here - same time - maybe 2 years ago? Even Costco was cleaned out. If you hit 2 or 3 grocery stores you'd find a couple bags eventually

-G
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby MarkJ » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 18:03:28

We heard stories about Sam's Club having a per-customer-per-visit limit on certain types of rice, but all the local stores had plenty of rice at the time with no limits.

Even the fear mongering by the media didn't cause a hoarding and panic buying driven disruption.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Ludi » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 18:48:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '
')By the end of March 2010, in the first Friday of April, the despair
of Flyover Country will be obvious to those who are looking.


I guess I'm still not sure what we should be looking for. No food in the stores? Or what?
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby efarmer » Mon 18 Jan 2010, 23:10:44

"The captain would like to direct everyone's attention to the land below as we cruise
west at 35,000 feet. Below us, is Flyover Country, and while you are sipping on
generous 3 ounce cups of high fructose laced, carbonated nectar, and gorging on
honey roast peanuts, say a prayer for those poor souls down there in all that God forsaken
farmland, marooned between those great rivers and lakes."

Down below, a poor urchin looked up and he chewed the cardboard left from his last
box of macaroni and cheese, with the empty cheese foil pouch on his nose to trick
himself into the notion of flavor. He saw the plane leave contrails and streak westward and
the old lamenting rhyme played over and over inside his head.,,

The East is swell and the West is the most, and my ass is toast, 'cause I ain't on the coast.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby Revi » Tue 19 Jan 2010, 23:03:15

Very poetic Efarmer.

I did find out that the price of rice is now high enough again to spur hoarding in Southeast Asia.

It isn't as high as it was a couple of years ago, but it is back up there.

I don't think widespread famine is possible in a few short months, but there may be some disruptions coming in a few things.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby MarkJ » Wed 20 Jan 2010, 07:38:08

Image

You know food is too cheap when you see so may incredibly obese lower income shoppers buying tons of garbage at WalMart SuperCenters. Many of the low income part-time cashiers are obese as well.

Many of the low income shoppers in these stores are so obese that they have to use motorized carts, walkers, canes, or wheelchairs to navigate the store, then need help getting into the transit buses, taxis and vehicles.


Many poor residents don't care about shortages of things like rice, meats, fruits and vegetables, but they would panic if there were shortages of frozen dinners, candy, chips, soda, snack cakes, cookies, cigarettes, beer, scratch-off tickets, pre-paid cellular minutes etc.
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Re: Food Is Too Cheap

Postby mcgowanjm » Wed 20 Jan 2010, 10:36:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '
')By the end of March 2010, in the first Friday of April, the despair
of Flyover Country will be obvious to those who are looking.


I guess I'm still not sure what we should be looking for. No food in the stores? Or what?


Here:

Google: Food Banks Overwhelmed.

http://www.google.com/search?q=food+ban ... =firefox-a

Two things to note:

1) The date-Nov 27/28, 2009
2) the stories are all over the map. Just the first page.

Nothing has gotten better since the above date. The
Worst Xmas(Sears down 13% Same store sales) in
history.

What to look for. Anectodal stories like local farm communities
shrinking. Farmers leaving.

Amidst all the usual terrible scenes of human suffering and tragedy one very brief incident is transfixed in my memory. It was of a news conference with some senior US politician who had something to do with the ‘relief’ effort. I forget who he was – it doesn’t matter: if it hadn’t been him it would have been a clone. A reporter asked him why they didn’t just parachute in essential supplies, like food and water, to the desperate survivors who were wandering around the ruined streets of Port-au-Prince quite naturally scavenging anything they could. The politician dismissed the question almost as though some naive child had asked it, and, before quickly moving on answered that if they did that there would be carnage as desperate people fought over whatever was supplied. In other words they’re not supplying immediate relief because that’s in the Haitians’ best interests. Let’s give that gentleman the benefit of the doubt, and say that he actually believed his own words; so I won’t call it a lie, I’ll simply call it the biggest load of rubbish I’d heard since… I don’t know… the previous night’s ‘news’ maybe.
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