[heyhoser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he US in the invading force here, Specop. If Russia or China invaded the US, to get rid of George Bush, and then proceeded to round up innocent people, humiliate them, rape them, etc...and you retaliated by catching a Russian and decapitating him, I'd applaud you. Would that be fair? Yes it would.

[rerere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')Since you believe what the President says

[CarnbY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', 'O')f course decapitations and torture done by terrorists are horrible acts, but these terrorists aren't the ones attacking other countries claiming to be liberators and defenders of freedom and democracy. Defending barbaric acts performed by the US military by comparing them to acts of terrorists is only indicative of a simple mind and lack of morals.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')The US in the invading force here, Specop. If Russia or China invaded the US, to get rid of George Bush, and then proceeded to round up innocent people, humiliate them, rape them, etc...and you retaliated by catching a Russian and decapitating him, I'd applaud you. Would that be fair? Yes it would.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', 'O')f course decapitations and torture done by terrorists are horrible acts, but these terrorists aren't the ones attacking other countries claiming to be liberators and defenders of freedom and democracy. Defending barbaric acts performed by the US military by comparing them to acts of terrorists is only indicative of a simple mind and lack of morals.

[CarnbY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CarnbY', 'O')f course decapitations and torture done by terrorists are horrible acts, but these terrorists aren't the ones attacking other countries claiming to be liberators and defenders of freedom and democracy. Defending barbaric acts performed by the US military by comparing them to acts of terrorists is only indicative of a simple mind and lack of morals.

[threadbear]

Speccop-- I think what people are saying is, "put yourself in their shoes". How would you feel and what would you do. They are reacting to being invaded. There is zero moral equivalency to the two sides. The US is completely wrong and acting as an international rogue nation. End of story.

[Specop_007]

Perhaps I'm misunderstood.
I'm not saying what we did is right, not by any stretch. It wasnt.
My point is, how can you put on the blinders and criticize only America for its treatment of prisoners?

For the record, if anyone came here and attacked, I would do EXACTLY what the terrorists there do. But, I wouldnt expect my enemy to treat my prisoners according to any treaties or laws if I wasnt abiding by those laws as well.

Its a matter of principal and honor. If I'm not honorable I shouldnt expect my enemy to be either.
But, if my enemy is not honorable then I shouldnt complain when my side isnt either.

Not to say war is honorable, or that its not. Simply using that to illustrate the example. Its just mind boggling how someone could scream and yell about our treatment of prisoners and not hold those same values to the other side as well.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')The US in the invading force here, Specop. If Russia or China invaded the US, to get rid of George Bush, and then proceeded to round up innocent people, humiliate them, rape them, etc...and you retaliated by catching a Russian and decapitating him, I'd applaud you. Would that be fair? Yes it would.

[AirlinePilot]

"The last public opinion polls that were taken (over a year ago) showed that only 2% (IIRC) consider you "liberators". The US had no plans for elections - they only happened after mass demonstrations (100,000 in Baghdad and 30,000 in Basra). "

I talked to a young helicopter crewman who we brought home for Christmas leave this last year. We picked them up in Atlanta and flew them up to Syracuse NY. I dont recall his unit at the moment but I know they were stationed near Fallujah and he had been there for several months. We get to talk with these guys a good bit lately as there are a lot of troops heading in or out of this country for various reasons these days.

I asked him how things were over there. I specifically asked him what he thought of the whole mess. He replied he'd rather not talk about his opinions on the conflict but was pretty animated about life in general and what they were doing. Most all of his comments were positive. They were providing a lot of help to the local populace in many forms. His personal estimate was that 80-90% of the people were very glad we got rid of Saddam and were helping them to get back on thier feet. He had personally been involved in a project involving a local school near where they were based.

I know how most of you feel about whats going on over there. I tend to agree that it's a huge mess. However, we have good people there doing things for others directly improving thier standard of living on a day to day basis. This isn't the first soldier I have talked with who has seen this. I think they will get through this turmoil and be better for it. The new government will likely be a puppet one I'm sure, but If I lived there I am sure I'd rather have that then what they had.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', '"')The last public opinion polls that were taken (over a year ago) showed that only 2% (IIRC) consider you "liberators". The US had no plans for elections - they only happened after mass demonstrations (100,000 in Baghdad and 30,000 in Basra). "

I talked to a young helicopter crewman who we brought home for Christmas leave this last year. We picked them up in Atlanta and flew them up to Syracuse NY. I dont recall his unit at the moment but I know they were stationed near Fallujah and he had been there for several months. We get to talk with these guys a good bit lately as there are a lot of troops heading in or out of this country for various reasons these days.

I asked him how things were over there. I specifically asked him what he thought of the whole mess. He replied he'd rather not talk about his opinions on the conflict but was pretty animated about life in general and what they were doing. Most all of his comments were positive. They were providing a lot of help to the local populace in many forms. His personal estimate was that 80-90% of the people were very glad we got rid of Saddam and were helping them to get back on thier feet. He had personally been involved in a project involving a local school near where they were based.

I know how most of you feel about whats going on over there. I tend to agree that it's a huge mess. However, we have good people there doing things for others directly improving thier standard of living on a day to day basis. This isn't the first soldier I have talked with who has seen this. I think they will get through this turmoil and be better for it. The new government will likely be a puppet one I'm sure, but If I lived there I am sure I'd rather have that then what they had.

[Doly]

The fact that Iraqis didn't like Saddam doesn't mean that they like the Americans.

And the fact that things are improving now doesn't mean that they are great.

[AirlinePilot]

I agree it is anecdotal, but I trust the guys who have told me this stuff. The press hasn't got the folks on the ground there like they did a year ago. I have talked with at least 5 or 6 soldiers in the last few months and they all have stories which reflect some good things happening. I don't think its being reported like it should. I never said things were getting better, just that there are some positive things going on. I tend to agree that it appears that the insurgents are really putting the pressure on.

[AirlinePilot]

Doly,

Which one would you rather have? Saddam as brutal dictator? Or a government set up to at least represent the people in some fashion outside of dictatorship? I am pretty confident that most of the Iraqi's you would ask (at least the ones who aren't afraid to talk) would pick option two.

[arretium]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'D')oly,

Which one would you rather have? Saddam as brutal dictator? Or a government set up to at least represent the people in some fashion outside of dictatorship? I am pretty confident that most of the Iraqi's you would ask (at least the ones who aren't afraid to talk) would pick option two.

[AirlinePilot]

I absolutely agree that we would presuppose thier choice. I can only base my idea on what a reasonable person would choose. What I am fairly sure of is that the majority of any population would choose freedom and hope over fear and death. I have no idea whether a majority of Iraqi people want change or not, but being a rational being I think it's better than even odds they will ultimately embrace a new government. I think even Eastern societies would agree that a representational form of government is preferable to a brutal dictatorship.

Wishing for pre invasion levels of security would be common I think, especially during the time of change. It's human nature to resist it. I admit that even if something similar happened here I'd be mightily concerned, especially if the combatants were dropping bombs in my neighborhood.

How are things going with me? Fine really, I am finding a very strange thing happening lately though. While I can't deny that PO will happen, there is enough uncertainty clouding the issue (timing wise) that I find myself torn between preparing for the inevitable and attempting to plan in some form for it not happening. I think it can't be both ways! If I go all out PO I could easily screw it up if it doesn't happen for 10 or 15 years! It's a balancing act, watching and waiting for the obvious signs when things may spiral downwards and attempting to not place all my eggs in the PO basket if it doesn't. A conundrum I'd be interested in how others are solving.

I have gotten myself out of debt, downsized the autos, and Im attempting to educate folks to whats coming. I do it much more on the sly now and it appears to have much better results.

[threadbear]

Airline, One person's democracy, is another's rule by mob. There are some insurgents stirring the pot in Iraq, granted, but the ones doing most of the fighting are the Shia majority and the Sunnis minority, who held power when Saddam was in power.

Should the Shia win in free elections, what do you think is going to happen to the Sunnis? It'll be payback time. The truth is, the next "elected" government, will make Saddam's look like a Utopian paradise.

The new regime will expose the crock of sh** reasoning, "Forget about the lies that got us into the war, Iraq will always be better off without Saddam."

The American govt, heaps one atrocity on top of another and then wants us to marvel at the beautiful sky scraper they've built.

[AirlinePilot]

I agree that having a Shia government in power could easily be worse than Saddam's regime. The operative word here is could. It's unlikely you are going to see something worse than they had with Saddam and his sons. I have a bit of hope that the Iraqi's, if given the chance will choose something not quite so vile. The real test will come after we leave, if we ever do. There are NO guarantees that things will get better. The ability or inability of the religious tribes to make it work is what will determine thier future. Ultimately it will be up to the people of Iraq and the choices they make as to whether they prosper or fall back into the pit.

The focus at this point for any successful faction should be the eradication of the insurgent groups. Providing some stability and security on the streets on a day to day basis is a priority. It will be a difficult road for sure. Your characterization of the elected government is purely speculation. Lets at least acknowledge that they have a chance at a brighter future.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'H')omes trashed and children blown up?? Oh please. You jest.

[AirlinePilot]

From your source,

"Johns Hopkins researchers note that even though their research indicates 100,000 civilians are dead that wouldn't otherwise be dead due to actions taken by coalition forces; they found no evidence of improper conduct by the coalition forces."

Pretty much destroys your idea that we are intentionally killing women and children.

While I was on active duty one of the primary concerns during weapons deployment was the possibility of collateral damage. Urban fighting is the worst by any definition. I have first hand knowledge that on a routine basis the grunt on the ground makes all attempts to avoid killing the innocent indigenous population. I don't deny it happens, but your characterization of it is false.