Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Virtue of Waste

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.
Post a reply

The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 10:43:32

I found this guys arguments just fascinating. The combination of everything from the 2nd Law of Therm to a backward view of Jevons paradox was simply wonderful.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1213/116.html
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 11:01:25

Just like yeast, humans will make nature's greatest beer/bread.
mcgowanjm
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2455
Joined: Fri 23 May 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 11:26:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'J')ust like yeast, humans will make nature's greatest beer/bread.


Yeah..uummmmm..somehow I think you missed the point.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 11:41:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'J')ust like yeast, humans will make nature's greatest beer/bread.


Yeah..uummmmm..somehow I think you missed the point.


Nope. And I knew almost exactly what Forbes would say, cause
I was reading it when Shark eyes Forbes daddy Malcolm was flying
around in all of those weird shaped balloons. :razz:

But I read the article anyway. Sounds just like yeast. And exactly like yeast, it (the group) dies not from running out of sugar/refined
grain, but because it can't get rid of it's waste product fast enough.

And I bet that in the last year, US citis have grown, the worst possible thing to happen:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Energy is different. Once you turn the energy content of a few million bushels of grain into a pyramid, say, by using the grain to feed workers who cut and haul the stones, that energy is gone, and you cannot turn the pyramid back into grain; all you can do is wait until the next harvest. If that harvest fails, and the stored energy in the granaries has already been turned into pyramids, neither the market economy of goods and services or the abstract system of distributing goods and services can make up for it. Nor, of course, can you send an extra ten thousand workers into the fields if you don't have the grain to keep them alive.

The peoples of agrarian civilizations generally understood this. It's part of the tragedy of the modern world that most people nowadays do not, even though our situation is not all that different from theirs.
mcgowanjm
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2455
Joined: Fri 23 May 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 12:20:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'J')ust like yeast, humans will make nature's greatest beer/bread.


Yeah..uummmmm..somehow I think you missed the point.


Nope. And I knew almost exactly what Forbes would say, cause
I was reading it when Shark eyes Forbes daddy Malcolm was flying
around in all of those weird shaped balloons. :razz:


Well...okay..but it wasn't Forbes who was saying it.....you did catch that didn't you...and are now just pretending its somehow Forbes fault for it being published?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '
')Energy is different. Once you turn the energy content of a few million bushels of grain into a pyramid, say, by using the grain to feed workers who cut and haul the stones, that energy is gone, and you cannot turn the pyramid back into grain; all you can do is wait until the next harvest.


Yeah...I think you missed the point. The continued ability to do what you have described..only better and more efficiently each time, was more the point than any phantom disappearance of energy, certainly the First Law of Thermodynamics pretty much excludes your idea that energy is actually "gone".
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby like_the_dinosaurs » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 17:16:21

For any othe crazy peak oiler's here who doubt the words written in this article then please go to your local library(remember to drive your hummer and not ride a bike. Also, throw petrol out of your window while you drive to help the cause) and borrow

Huber, Peter; Mark P. Mills (2005). The Bottomless Well: The twilight of Fuel, The Virtue of Waste and Why we will Never Run Out Of Energy

Rock on cornies. YEEE HAAAA :twisted:

Once again I question why are you here........................

I dont hang around morman forums and post charles darwin links so why post this stuff here..........
"The elite DO believe they are worshipping and are being directed by demon creatures." ALEX JONES
User avatar
like_the_dinosaurs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Australia
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 17:25:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('like_the_dinosaurs', '
')Huber, Peter; Mark P. Mills (2005). The Bottomless Well: The twilight of Fuel, The Virtue of Waste and Why we will Never Run Out Of Energy

Rock on cornies. YEEE HAAAA :twisted:

Once again I question why are you here........................

I dont hang around morman forums and post charles darwin links so why post this stuff here..........


Thats the guy. The reason I referenced it is because its a fabulous concept. Use more! Because otherwise, the cheap supply of known oil over the next 100 years will limit the ability to achieve price parity with the more efficient use of any and all other energy forms. And if you need or want THOSE, then the solution is you must find a way to dispose of the easy and available stuff...so WASTE IT.

Uses the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and Jevons paradox in combination in a quite interesting way. I'm going to have to get the book now just to see what other examples he might have.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby like_the_dinosaurs » Sun 15 Nov 2009, 21:06:35

Once again you and oily avoid the question presented. So it's the mute button for you.

PS When ever you decide to get that book promise me you will follow my instructions to the tee. You should of been around in the 30's.What a laugh that would of been. I guess 'waste not, want not' wouldnt apply to you.

By the way too ; The energy is lost forever(from our point of view) in the form of heat

Entropy – energy broken down in irretrievable heat
"The elite DO believe they are worshipping and are being directed by demon creatures." ALEX JONES
User avatar
like_the_dinosaurs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Australia
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 00:28:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('like_the_dinosaurs', 'E')ntropy – energy broken down in irretrievable heat
Um, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby Homesteader » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 02:12:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('like_the_dinosaurs', 'E')ntropy – energy broken down in irretrievable heat
Um, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)


Your physics teacher, if you had one, would be ashamed.
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill

Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
User avatar
Homesteader
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu 12 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Economic Nomad
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 03:46:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('like_the_dinosaurs', 'E')ntropy – energy broken down in irretrievable heat
Um, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)
Your physics teacher, if you had one, would be ashamed.
So then, if not heat, what magical form of energy is released by combustion?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 03:49:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')s yesplease confused, a bored troll, a oil-company plant, or a psycho? Strange times these 8O

Shouldn't be you be endorsing some B.S. marketing study by GM, or replying to another forum member by describing how you're going to lock them in a room and kill them Peter? I mean, that is what you've done, isn't it?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby Quinny » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 04:12:36

What's that about stopping digging?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('like_the_dinosaurs', 'E')ntropy – energy broken down in irretrievable heat
Um, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)
Your physics teacher, if you had one, would be ashamed.
So then, if not heat, what magical form of energy is released by combustion?
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 10:13:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'U')m, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)



After you have used that energy (heat) to run your power plant, how do you retrieve it?

The energy (heat) has been used for work. How do you now retrieve it? If you can not retrieve it, in what way is it not "irretrievable"? If it is retrievable, isn't that a perpetual motion machine? Where is the evidence of such a thing?

<<<< never took physics
Ludi
 
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby Quinny » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 10:37:07

I wouldn't worry, it seems many who did, don't understand as well as you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'U')m, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)



After you have used that energy (heat) to run your power plant, how do you retrieve it?

The energy (heat) has been used for work. How do you now retrieve it? If you can not retrieve it, in what way is it not "irretrievable"? If it is retrievable, isn't that a perpetual motion machine? Where is the evidence of such a thing?

<<<< never took physics
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 15:19:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'U')m, if energy broken down into heat was really irretrievable, we wouldn't have ICEs or power plants. They both burn FFs or whatever, turn them into irretrievable heat, and retrieve mechanical, then electrical power, in different proportions from that irretrievable heat. ;)
After you have used that energy (heat) to run your power plant, how do you retrieve it?
That's just the problem, if it's irretrievable heat, as like_the_dinosaurs claimed, it can't be used in the first place, it's irretrievable after all. ;)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he energy (heat) has been used for work. How do you now retrieve it? If you can not retrieve it, in what way is it not "irretrievable"? If it is retrievable, isn't that a perpetual motion machine? Where is the evidence of such a thing?

<<<< never took physics
Like I said before, if it's irretrievable, it can't be used for work, that's what irretrievable means. Then again, saying it's irretrievable is bunk. In general, the amount of work available depends on the difference in temperatures given whatever material limits are present. A saying like "irretrievable heat" is irrational nonsense, and seems to be indicative of this forums unfortunately. It's not about heat having some characteristic that makes it irretrievable, if it was, combustion (among other things) and the universe as we know it wouldn't exist. It's about what kind of difference in temperature we're looking at given whatever engine. Different engines are designed to work under different conditions, and so on... Practically speaking, the lowest temperature difference that can be exploited is a degree F or so.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
User avatar
yesplease
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3765
Joined: Tue 03 Oct 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby Quinny » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 16:00:28

So where are these 100% efficient machines you're describing? :lol:
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Virtue of Waste

Unread postby shortonsense » Sat 21 Nov 2009, 16:58:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o where are these 100% efficient machines you're describing? :lol:


He didn't describe any of those.

Words really don't do the Laws of Thermodynamics justice, particularly when its being debated by those who use heat, energy and work near synonymously.

The beauty of the original article I quoted is that it attacks the problem from a different angle, breaking things up into that which has value, like energy contained within a particularly concentrated or useful form ( like a laser ), and the vastness of less concentrated energy forms ( like sunlight ).

CHP ( combined heat and power ) plants use the heat that would otherwise be wasted, much like a cars radiator, and does something useful with it instead. Such systems do not require, and certainly can't achieve ( as demonstrated by the Laws of Thermodynamics ) a 1:1 ratio of conversion. And certainly yesplease said no such thing about a 100% efficient machine. Why is that strawman necessary?
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top
Next
Post a reply

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests



cron