[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')Because you don't want your house cluttered with kindercrap (i think that's the word they used) is not a meaningful reason to me.

[Nefarious]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', 'y')ou not having children will not affect Bangladesh in the slightest

[Nefarious]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')Because you don't want your house cluttered with kindercrap (i think that's the word they used) is not a meaningful reason to me.

[Revi]

Children born today may live to see us figure it out.

Or they may live through some of the scariest times we have ever had.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', ' ')That's the most selfish,self centered,modern consumerist,ideology I have ever seen. and most of it is Expletive deleted.!

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t seems to me that a person who sees helping a child with learning as a hardship has the best reason in the world not to have children! Do we really want such self-involved people having children?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RikkiTikkiTavi', 'l')et's not pretend they aren't selfish.

[Nefarious]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
') That's the most selfish,self centered,modern consumerist,ideology I have ever seen. and most of it is bullshit!

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')oes it really matter why they aren't having children?

[SeaGypsy]

I know a few couples doing the 'childlessness to save the planet' thing.
They live like gays. They collect things and pets and build houses too big for them. They drive multiple cars. They are a consumer economists wet dream. I'm sure there are some who do it better but I haven't met any.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')What is the right thing mos? I would like to hear a father's perspective.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')I must disconnect myself from the world's problems as much as possible.By becoming more self sufficient for my food,water,shelter and protection I am relying less on the world to provide it for me. So when the world's problems do start to manifest themselves I will be somewhat sheltered from them. To a point that is.

[Newfie]

Well this discussion is increasing my Peak Depression. It starts to feel like a marital argument.

But seriously, I think that this kind of discussion points out why the OP was getting at, there are very tough decisions to be made and there is no clear right and wrong answer. It is all very depressing.

I hear passionate arguments on both sides that I can resonate with. I know I don't feel that I can give someone advice on this topic.

What else is interesting is that I generally find all you guys to be good and thoughtful posters. But this damn topic of kids and population can get our goat and get us arguing.

Perhaps this is all good as it lets us get the frustrations out and vent. And we get to (maybe) hear the other side of things. God only knows who is lurking on this site and absorbing what we are saying and what decisions THEY are coming to.

Mos, to you I would say I hope you child never reads these posts or that you have an extremely good relationship so you can communicate BOTH the love you feel for him/her and your intellectual ideas. I know being a parent, let alone single, is very difficult. Good luck.

Ludi, to you I would say that I think you got some mighty fine genes woman! You may choose to not reproduce, your choice, but if you did I think it would be a positive contribution. You are a smart and caring person.



Now having said all that nice stuff, let me throw a hand grenade into the discussion.

Why are men arguing this? Reproduction is a woman's world! Ask any dairy farmer. How many cows and how many bulls? If we got rid of 95% of the men we would not effect Human reproduction capacity. If we got rid of 95% of women we would reduce it by 95%.

So, how does that little FACT relate to our ambitious population control schemes? Should we put a tax on daughters? Someone just told me the Chinese want to give them (for adoption) away and keep the sons. In a one child society sons are more valued as strong backs for retirement!

Any thoughts?

[Revi]

The world doesn't work without women. Men have been cannon fodder forever, without affecting the population hardly at all. The die off that is coming will have to be severe to kill off both men and women. Is there any historical precedent? I can't think of any culture that lost it's women and kept the men.

[Nefarious]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')What is the right thing mos? I would like to hear a father's perspective.

[Nefarious]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '
')I must disconnect myself from the world's problems as much as possible.By becoming more self sufficient for my food,water,shelter and protection I am relying less on the world to provide it for me. So when the world's problems do start to manifest themselves I will be somewhat sheltered from them. To a point that is.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RikkiTikkiTavi', '
')It does if people are holding them up to be more noble than the rest of us, when they are simply doing something out of selfishness. There's only one person I know of who claims to have had no children specifically for ecological reasons - and I don't believe those claims.

[Newfie]

For your consideration.............there is always an answer for an open mind!

VILLE PLATTE, La. (AP) - A Louisiana couple admitted giving an exotic bird to a woman in exchange for two children, a district attorney said Wednesday.

Paul and Brandy Romero, of Eunice, pleaded guilty to two felony counts of sale of a minor child, Evangeline Parish District Attorney Trent Brignac's office said in a statement. Their five-year prison sentences were suspended in exchange for their testimony against the woman accused of handing over the children, Donna Greenwell of Glenmora, the statement said.

The Romeros traded their cockatoo and $175 for the children in February. Greenwell is not their mother, but the children were living with her. Prosecutors say she "instigated" the transfer when she responded to the Romeros' advertisement for sale of the bird.

Greenwell, who is free on bond, has pleaded not guilty to two felony counts of sale of minor children. Her trial is set for November.

Greenwell's lawyer, Steve Sikich, has said previously that there was no swap involved and that Greenwell was trying to find a suitable home for the children. He did not immediately return a call for comment on Wednesday's guilty pleas.

The DAs' statement said Paul Romero, 46, and 28-year-old Brandy were unable to have children and "unaware of the exact legal requirements for transferring custody of minor children. The couple maintains they were simply trying to provide a home for two children that were unwanted by Greenwell."

Authorities initially thought Greenwell had kidnapped the children, but then learned that the biological parents were aware they were living with Greenwell.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')So, how does that little FACT relate to our ambitious population control schemes? Should we put a tax on daughters? Someone just told me the Chinese want to give them (for adoption) away and keep the sons. In a one child society sons are more valued as strong backs for retirement!

[Newfie]

Come on Mos, if you are going to have a effective population control scheme you are going to have to do better than that. Supposedly the US and other Westernized cultures pride ourselves in doing away with social stigma, prejudice, bias, whatever you call it.

You will need a real PLAN to get the numbers down and keep them depressed.

Sorry for the sarcastic remarks. But clearly social stigma is not going to be an effective population control measure.

Let's suppose you were successful in convincing a segment of the population to stop having kids, it could be even MOST of the population. But there is a small segment who still believes in heavy reproduction. In a few generations your kind would be gone and replaced with their kind. So your net change would be nothing.

I fear you are responding to overpopulation with emotional arguments. But the way nature work does not support your solution.

Unfortunately all the solutions nature supports will be ugly, and the faster the uglier. I see no alternative. That makes me emotionally depressed,