[Sixstrings]

Good points, SPG.. this is a case where I've come to conclusions after listening to the "talking points" -- one of those messages being that Medicare is easier to deal with than all those different insurance companies. You stated your points well and have experience in the field, so I'll have to defer to you.

As for the Baucus plan, everyone agrees it's crap.

I think what we need is a public option, wherein ANY US citizen can participate (insurance companies don't even want a public option, but if there is one they only want those without insurance to participate).

I think competition is a good thing, and in reality private insurance wouldn't be at a disadvantage. Just think about all the sick / unemployed folks whom private insurance doesn't want.. they will invariably cost the public option more than private insurers customers.

So, the competition issue will balance out.. the public option would be non-profit, but that wouldn't an advantage due to higher claims.

Anyway, we know what you're against.. so what are you for? What's your answer? Surely, you agree something has to change.. we can't keep on truckin with the current healthcare inflation rate.

[Tyler_JC]

The German number does appear to be wrong. I found another source (NPR) that shows German doctors earning $123K before taxes (the number quoted above was after taxes and adjusted for cost of living).

So let's say the real number is probably closer to $80,000/$90,000 after taxes for a German doctor?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036

I'm more concerned about this statement:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or the American people, one difference would be that $600 billion of insurance company profits would be removed from the healthcare system. What's more important to you, insurance company executive bonuses or using that money to heal the sick?

[Sixstrings]

You're right Tyler, I got my numbers mixed up. The round figure of $650 billion is basically what it costs us to have for-profit healthcare in this country.. in other words, that's how much more we spend than we would if we had a non-profit based system like the rest of the civilized world does.

Source:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to one study, of the $2.1 trillion the U.S. spent on health care in 2006, nearly $650 billion was above what we would expect to spend based on the level of U.S. wealth versus other nations. These additional costs are attributable to $436 billion outpatient care and another $186 billion of spending related to high administrative costs.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

[Quinny]

I think this is a bit naive
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'F')irst of all, 60k is about what a lot of nurses make (locally, they start out at around 45k, some make more). If specialists could just be happy with around 200k, then all our problems would be solved. I say specialists, because as you know, every doctor and his uncle has become a specialist these days so they can bill more. --snip--
Dealing with insurance companies is like a feminine hygiene commercial compared to dealing with medicare or medicaid. When I was in private practice, I eventually started making my receptionist make all the calls to medicare and medicaid. I ended up wanting to scream at them every time I called.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')nyway, we know what you're against.. so what are you for? What's your answer? Surely, you agree something has to change.. we can't keep on truckin with the current healthcare inflation rate.

[Quinny]

I would agree with much of what you say, the compensation culture we imported from the USA has had a massive negative impact on all aspects of life here in the UK.

The NHS in general is an excellent system though and the main people who are fighting against it are the filthy rich and those who will earn more from it. The dual system we have here where the private practitioner/consultant leeches off the NHS is IMO a major cause of cost escalation. It also skews planning and targets, because the greedy doctors work out the ways they can best milk the system for more money.

I do agree with many of your points re the whole philosophy of medicine, but they are issues that need to be addressed whatever system is in place.

I was unlucky to break my neck surfing in the States.

The first questions asked by the paramedic were all about insurance and who my insurer was. Luckily one of my friends gave them enough to get me in the ambulance. The conversation continued between the driver and the paramedic all the way to the hospital. They were discussing which hospital to go to as my insurance situation wasn't clear. Virtually no discussion of my injury. I was in a pretty difficult situation, but remember thinking it seemed bizarre they were more interested in payment than patient. It also made me think about the consequences if I had been poor with no health insurance.

I was grateful for the care, but it made me realise the value of the NHS, and grateful I wasn't dependent on the US health system.

[vision-master]

Instead of those costly drug treatment programs that don't work, Ibogaine is suppose to work wonders. Why is it not an accepted treatment here?


Link

[AlexdeLarge]

And you Doctors can treat them for free !!

Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')resident Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ') Hateful diatribes against doctors are not going to make your healthcare any better. I'd be perfectly happy making $60,000 a year, but you try to make.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')What's important is insightful discussion of the problems with our medical system instead of this childish BS about sticking it to the man. Seriously. There are a lot of complex reasons why our medical system is in disarray, but being oppressed by the insurance company isn't on the list.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'W')hat's important is insightful discussion of the problems with our medical system instead of this childish BS about sticking it to the man. Seriously. There are a lot of complex reasons why our medical system is in disarray, but being oppressed by the insurance company isn't on the list.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlexdeLarge', 'A')nd you Doctors can treat them for free !!
Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1 $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')resident Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'F')or patients, being oppressed by the insurance company might be on the list. How about the incentive insurance companies have to drop patients? There have been plenty of incidents where insurance companies refuse to authorize medical treatment where the insured patient has a valid claim simply because they know the fines will not exceed the money they'll save when the patient dies without treatment. Sanctions and lawsuits are just costs of doing business that are factored into their revenue vs expense calculations.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'I')nsurance discrimination based on pre-existing conditions makes adequate health insurance unavailable to millions of Americans.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Just out of curiosity, who currently foots the bill when an illegal alien shows up at the hospital ER?

And would providing American citizens National ID cards with biometrics prevent illegals from getting treatment at the ER?

Actually since it is possible in an accident a person might no longer have an ID card on their person (possibly due to a fire burning all their clothes off including their wallet), implanted RFID tags that could be scanned in the hospital ER might be a solution.

Even better, ER rooms could simply turn away patients who's RFID tags indicate they have no health insurance. Or instead of turning patients away entirely, they could be guided to the morgue, where they could patiently wait until they die. Or maybe let them wait in the place where they can collect organs for donation.

[Tyler_JC]

How about we force a little competition on the health insurance companies?

Allow any (legitimate) insurance company to sell insurance in any state. That will instantly break up the oligopolies and force them to compete on quality and cost.

We have states where one or two companies control 80% or more of the market. As a result, these companies are able to wield enough political capital to block new entries to the market. How is that a free market?

Imagine if Ford had 80% market share in Wisconsin and didn't allow any new companies to sell their cars in the state. Care to guess how much a car would cost?

But of course, Congress's health care plan does NOTHING to break up these entrenched interests and instead merely forks over more taxpayer money to the same corrupt oligarchs who are preventing the health care industry from functioning in the first place.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'H')ow about we force a little competition on the health insurance companies?

Allow any (legitimate) insurance company to sell insurance in any state. That will instantly break up the oligopolies and force them to compete on quality and cost.

[rangerone314]

The point of this link is to try and imagine 21st century Americans fighting like this:
http://volunteersinparks.blogspot.com/2008/08/sunken-road-in-55mm.html

American's are afraid of death probably more than any other society on Earth.

Curious, for a society that has so many people so heavily religious and invested in the afterlife.

I read about the case of a woman who had TWO different kinds of cancer and she was going to die within months, and she needed some sort of immediate heart surgery for a 3rd issue, and her family was insisting on surgery even though the doctor knew himself there was no real point anymore.

I begin to think as a society we should simply determine what % of the GNP should go to health care, make that a ceiling allocate X dollars for each person for basic and preventative healthcare, and if people want medical coverage or insurance beyond this they pay extra themselves.

Allow people to shop for plans in any state they want, but the key is minding who regulates the insurance, so that you don't have a race to the bottom like with credit card companies, who go to the state with the most lax regulations.

There should be multiple tiers, so if a rich person wants to pay mucho bucks to have $100,000,000 in coverage, then let him.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'I')nsurance discrimination based on pre-existing conditions makes adequate health insurance unavailable to millions of Americans.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')hat's crap. First off state insurance commisions are very aggressive about investigating and correcting that sort of thing when it happens, and secondly PEOPLE NEED TO BE CUT OFF! Wasting $3million in medical care on someone who's going to spend the rest of his life drooling on himself is not a sane thing to do.