by Carlhole » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 10:04:46
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')BM: Artificial brain '10 years away'
Yet another investor fraud.[/url]
The IBM Blue Brain Project is not seeking investors. Where'd you get THAT idea? Out of your stupid ass, no doubt.
People explore interesting science like this because current technology makes it possible - ie. taking nano-slices of the human brain and digitizing the revealed neural networks to create a virtual brain that can operate on one of IBM's Blue Gene Supercomputers.
This is a perfect project for a company like IBM whose core business can only prosper by knowledge gained about how the brain processes and stores information.
This is a tedious and meticulous task but it does not involve challenges like that of fusion energy which requires the containment of a reaction at tens of millions of degrees.
(See the
FAQpage where the following questions are addressed:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Answers to questions about the Blue Brain Project
What are the developments in supercomputing that have made this project possible?
What computer power would you need to simulate the whole brain?
What is the difference between cellular and molecular simulation?
Is it possible to model the NCC at the molecular level?
What species will be modeled first?
How does one go from modeling a rat's neocortex to modeling a human neocortex?
To what extent will the computer give the same response as actual living brain tissue?
How do you relate your research to the field of artificial intelligence?
How much do we know about how individual neurons and brain molecules behave - is it possible to uncover everything?
Do you believe a computer can ever be an exact simulation of the human brain?
Is the brain like a computer?
How will you be able to replicate the complexity of neurons and neurotransmitter actions?
The Blue Gene is one of the fastest supercomputers around, but is it enough?
You are using 8'000 processors to simulate 10'000 neurons -- is this a 1 neuron/processor model?
How does the Blue Brain interface with laboratory research?
How will replicating the columns help us to understand the brain?
Will consciousness emerge?
Back when the Human Genome Project began, people similarly objected that the task was too enormously complex and would take hundreds of years to complete.
Wrong.
Digitizing the human brain does not appear to be even as challenging as mapping the human genome.
The Business of Personal Genomes$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n some ways, Jorge Conde, cofounder of the genomics startup Knome, knows his clients more intimately than any other company president. Knome is the first company to sequence and analyze a consumer's complete genome. And Conde and his team have spent a full day with each member of their select clientele, going through the minute details of the results in search of hidden genomic time bombs, subtle health risks, and other information.
At $100,000, Knome's product is still out of reach for most consumers. But that could change fast. The cost of genome sequencing is dropping by an order of magnitude every one to two years, and the cost of Knome's product will drop with it, though not quite as fast. (When the company debuted its service in late 2007, it cost $350,000.) That means that within the next few years, having your genome sequenced will cost about the same as cataract surgery, making it affordable to include your genome sequence as an integral part of your medical record.
by EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 11:21:59
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')The IBM Blue Brain Project is not seeking investors. Where'd you get THAT idea? Out of your stupid ass, no doubt.
Well... entire IBM is seeking investors so they are announcing some silly-willy to attract few flies.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eople explore interesting science like this because current technology makes it possible - ie. taking nano-slices of the human brain and digitizing the revealed neural networks to create a virtual brain that can operate on one of IBM's Blue Gene Supercomputers.
That is only wishful thinking.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')igitizing the human brain does not appear to be even as challenging as mapping the human genome.
Look moron,
You want to digitize something what is not digital in its working.
Digital approach cannot work here because neurons are not working or communicating with each other in digital fashion and also mechanisms of memory working in brain are entirely different than these in computers.
You are trying to make rat droppings tasting like a coffee.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he doomers on PO.com are just a bunch of narrow-minded, anti-science/anti-technology idiots.
by Carlhole » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 11:35:16
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')The IBM Blue Brain Project is not seeking investors. Where'd you get THAT idea? Out of your stupid ass, no doubt.
Well... entire IBM is seeking investors so they are announcing some silly-willy to attract few flies.
IBM is attractive to shareholders because of its attractive product line of high performance computing hardware and software which has proven highly rewarding for decades. IBM funds its own high tech research in highly promising lines to continually grow its capabilities.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou want to digitize something what is not digital in its working. Digital approach cannot work here because neurons are not working or communicating with each other in digital fashion and also mechanisms of memory working in brain are entirely different than these in computers.
Now you are claiming expertise beyond that of IBM and Dr Markham, head of Blue Brain? Christ! What ignorant cretins pollute any interesting scientific research threads around here.
If you had bothered to read anything about the Blue Brain Project, you wouldn't make such stupid statements as these.
by EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 12:22:32
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou want to digitize something what is not digital in its working. Digital approach cannot work here because neurons are not working or communicating with each other in digital fashion and also mechanisms of memory working in brain are entirely different than these in computers.
Now you are claiming expertise beyond that of IBM and Dr Markham, head of Blue Brain? Christ! What ignorant cretins pollute any interesting scientific research threads around here.
Attending one pharma organized symposium related to neurochemistry about 7 or 8 years ago I have heard about 1 hour long lecture of one doctor who was attempting to run computer simulations of
single neuron to neuron communication mechanism.
And guess what?
During questioning time audience have realized that he is not aware that such a thing like
synapse or
neurotransmitters exists at all.
There are plenty of ignorant cretins (and you are one of them) who are simply refusing to acknowledge that digital technology has nothing to do with brain working whatsoever, that neurons do not communicate by sending any sort of digital data streams, that brain works in entirely non-digital fashion and so using digital technology to replicate brain working is
plain stupid.It is about as good as attempting to open can of coke with cucumber or like attempting to read DVD disc in A-drive or on vinyl record player..
Many interesting things can be learned out of discussed project, but these will have nothing to do at all with actual mechanisms of human brain workings.
by Carlhole » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 12:36:44
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou want to digitize something what is not digital in its working. Digital approach cannot work here because neurons are not working or communicating with each other in digital fashion and also mechanisms of memory working in brain are entirely different than these in computers.
Now you are claiming expertise beyond that of IBM and Dr Markham, head of Blue Brain? Christ! What ignorant cretins pollute any interesting scientific research threads around here.
Attending one pharma organized symposium related to neurochemistry about 7 or 8 years ago I have heard about 1 hour long lecture of one doctor who was attempting to run computer simulations of
single neuron to neuron communication mechanism.
And guess what?
During questioning time audience have realized that he is not aware that such a thing like
synapse or
neurotransmitters exists at all.
There are plenty of ignorant cretins (and you are one of them) who are simply refusing to acknowledge that digital technology has nothing to do with brain working whatsoever, that neurons do not communicate by sending any sort of digital data streams, that brain works in entirely non-digital fashion and so using such technology to replicate brain working is
plain stupid.It is about as good as attempting to open can of coke with cucumber.
Many interesting things can be learned out of discussed project, but these will have nothing to do at all with actual mechanisms of human brain workings.
You just haven't read or understood anything about the Blue Brain Project.
I posted the FAQ page a while back. Here are 3 questions and their answers:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]How do you relate your research to the field of artificial intelligence?
We are not trying to create a specific form of intelligence, but rather trying to understand the emergence of mammalian intelligence. We will of course be examining the computational power of the Neo-Cortical Column (NCC). In particular, we will explore the ability of the NCC to act as a Liquid Computer (a form of analog computer that handles continuous data streams). This could be used for dynamic vision and scene segmentation, real-time auditory processing, as well as sensory-motor integration for robotics. Another special ability of the neocortex is the ability to anticipate the future based on current data (the birth of cognition) and so we will examine the ability of the NCC to make intelligent predictions on complex data. We will also examine other forms of computing that can be used - perhaps hybrid digital-analog computing, but this is quite far in the future.
How much do we know about how individual neurons and brain molecules behave - is it possible to uncover everything?The past 50 years have yielded an immense amount of information about the brain, the neurons it contains, the molecules that make up the neurons, and the genes that produce the molecules. There is still a tremendous amount to find out, but we now need a platform where all this information can be integrated and that is the main purpose of building the NCC. "Everything" is a lot, but we have definitely entered a phase of brain research where the brain's secrets are being revealed at an extremely rapid pace. I call this phase the Synthesis Phase where the fragments of knowledge are being collected and assembled to reconstruct the manner in which the brain works - the Blue Brain Project is just one part of this process.
Do you believe a computer can ever be an exact simulation of the human brain?This is neither likely nor necessary. It will be very difficult because, in the brain, every molecule is a powerful computer and we would need to simulate the structure and function of trillions upon trillions of molecules as well as all the rules that govern how they interact. You would literally need computers that are trillions of times bigger and faster than anything existing today. Mammals can make very good copies of each other, we do not need to make computer copies of mammals. That is not our goal. We want to try to understand how the biological system functions and malfunctions so that this knowledge can benefit mankind.
by EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 12:56:11
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Do you believe a computer can ever be an exact simulation of the human brain?
This is neither likely nor necessary. It will be very difficult because, in the brain, every molecule is a powerful computer and we would need to simulate the structure and function of trillions upon trillions of molecules as well as all the rules that govern how they interact. You would literally need computers that are trillions of times bigger and faster than anything existing today. Mammals can make very good copies of each other, we do not need to make computer copies of mammals. That is not our goal. We want to try to understand how the biological system functions and malfunctions so that this knowledge can benefit mankind.
1. It is acknowledged that computer will very unlikely mimic human brain in detail.
I would add here that most likely it will mimic human brain about as much as dispersed rat droppings can mimic coffee.
2. They will learn, how
digital system of their construction but not any sort of biological system functions and malfunctions.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes anyone else at PO.com besides StupidityUnlimited actually believe that Modern Neuroscience is not aware of synapses and neurotransmitters? Jesus F. Christ!
Neuroscientists are certainly aware of synapse existence but at least one computer meddling cretin was not, what was found on conference which I have attended.
Hence you have typical problem with interdisciplinary science:
duck talking to a chicken.
by rangerone314 » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 13:08:14
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
You know, your dumbass comments speak for themselves.
Your messages are devoid of content.
I dunno... I kinda like the "duck talking to a chicken" metaphor.
I guess this means maybe Earth will finally have intelligent (albeit artificial) life in 10 years.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right
Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take
You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown
Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
by Carlhole » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 13:34:34
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')fter all the fancy talk and silly acronyms and other rhetorical flourish the author basically admits that animals (with trillions of computer for brains) can not be duplicated. Then how would human intelligence be?
This is inane techtopian blather.
God, what a bunch of illiterate fools.
The Blue Brain Project is interested in modeling the Neo-Cortical Column in order to
reverse engineer some of the principles upon which the brains of mammals and/or the human neocortex operates. This learning has high potential application in Artificial Intelligence, High End Computing, better understanding the pathologies of mental illness, and reducing the necessity of animal experimentation.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wiki', 'T')he aim of the project, founded in May 2005 by the Brain and Mind Institute of the École Polytechnique in Lausanne, Switzerland, is to study the brain's architectural and functional principles. The project is headed by the Institute's director, Henry Markham. Using a Blue Gene supercomputer running Michael Hines's NEURON software, the simulation does not consist simply of an artificial neural network, but involves a biologically realistic model of neurons. It is hoped that it will eventually shed light on the nature of consciousness.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')eocortical column modelling
The initial goal of the project,
completed in December 2006, was the simulation of a rat neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex (the part of the brain thought to be responsible for higher functions such as conscious thought). Such a column is about 2 mm tall, has a diameter of 0.5 mm and contains about 60,000 neurons in humans; rat neocortical columns are very similar in structure but contain only 10,000 neurons (and 108 synapses). Between 1995 and 2005, Markram mapped the types of neurons and their connections in such a column.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rogress
In November 2007, the project reported the end of the first phase, delivering a data-driven process for creating, validating, and researching the neocortical column.
Now that the column is finished, the project is currently busying itself with the publishing of initial results in scientific literature, and pursuing two separate goals:
1. construction of a simulation on the molecular level, which is desirable since it allows to study effects of gene expression;
2. simplification of the column simulation to allow for parallel simulation of large numbers of connected columns, with the ultimate goal of simulating a whole neocortex (which in humans consists of about 1 million cortical columns).
by EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 15:36:01
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
God, what a bunch of illiterate fools.
Such a cretin...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Blue Brain Project is interested in modeling the Neo-Cortical Column in order to
reverse engineer some of the principles upon which the brains of mammals and/or the human neocortex operates. This learning has high potential application in Artificial Intelligence, High End Computing, better understanding the pathologies of mental illness, and reducing the necessity of animal experimentation.
1. You cannot reverse engineer ways how brain computes information on digital chips.
You was already explained that non-digital processes cannot be run in digital circuitry.
You have to redesign your chips from the scratch to even think about that... and needless to say necessary technology to do so does not exist yet even on conceptual level.
To say it plainly :
Brain-like behaving computing circuitry cannot be made base on digital chips.
2. Described exercise has some possible applications in AI field, but don't expect too much from that.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wiki', 'T')he aim of the project, founded in May 2005 by the Brain and Mind Institute of the École Polytechnique in Lausanne, Switzerland, is to study the brain's architectural and functional principles. The project is headed by the Institute's director, Henry Markham. Using a Blue Gene supercomputer running Michael Hines's NEURON software, the simulation does not consist simply of an artificial neural network, but involves a biologically realistic model of neurons.
No there is nothing biologically realistic in this model.
Basic means of information processing present in biological systems are not and
cannot be even in theory replicated on digital circuitry.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is hoped that it will eventually shed light on the nature of consciousness.
by Carlhole » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 16:41:28
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou cannot learn about system based on non-digital principles by observing system working on digital principles.
WTF do you know about neuroscience or modeling the neo-cortical column? You're just some dumbass on a public discussion board spouting off about things you know nothing about.
Popular Science: "Digital Rat Brain Spontaneously Develops Organized Neuron Patterns"$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')our years ago, a team of researchers at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland switched on Blue Brain, a computer designed to mimic a functioning slice of a rat's brain. At first, the virtual neurons fired only when prodded by a simulated electrical current. But recently, that has changed.
Apparently, the simulated neurons have begun spontaneously coordinating, and organizing themselves into a more complex pattern that resembles a wave. According to the scientists, this is the beginning of the self-organizing neurological patterns that eventually, in more complex mammal brains, become personality.
The computer simulation utilizes an IBM supercomputer capable of performing 22.8 trillion operations in a second. And that's just barely enough to simulate one part of a rat's brain. Each individual neuron requires the computing power of a high-end desktop computer, and the small area of the brain that Blue Brain simulates contains 10,000 neurons.
The supercomputer is powerful enough to generate a real-time 3D image of what the simulated brain would look like if it was an actual bundle of biological neurons. The 10,000 neurons and their 10 million connections are color-coded in the 3D image, and that's where the higher-order patterns were first observed. The coordination of the neurons appeared as unified waves of color, gliding from one side of the virtual brain to the other.
The researchers running Blue Brain hope that what they're learning about the organization of neurons in the simulated rat brain will allow them to create a digital human brain within 10 years, even though that is many orders of magnitude more complex than a rat brain.
It's already been done in a rat brain as I have already posted several times. Now the task is to do the same thing in a human neo-cortical column. Once the same task has been accomplished in the human NCC, supercomputer simulations of bundles of neo-cortical columns can begin to shed light on how the neo-cortex processes information.
So, what this is is a sophisticated research tool that can continually evolve to incorporate whatever new knowledge is discovered about the functionings of neurons and large buncles of NCCs.
Last edited by Carlhole on Fri 24 Jul 2009, 16:52:00, edited 1 time in total.
by Carlhole » Fri 24 Jul 2009, 16:48:12
Wall Street Journal: "In Search for Intelligence, a Silicon Brain Twitches"$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WSJ', 'T')he project hopes to tackle one of the most perplexing mysteries of neuroscience: How does human intelligence emerge? The Blue Brain scientists hope their computer model can shed light on the puzzle, and possibly even replicate intelligence in some way.
"We're building the brain from the bottom up, but in silicon," says Dr. Markram, the leader of Blue Brain, which is powered by a supercomputer provided by International Business Machines Corp. "We want to understand how the brain learns, how it perceives things, how intelligence emerges."
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')espite the challenges, the push to understand, replicate and even re-enact higher behaviors in the brain has become one of the hottest areas of neuroscience. With the help of a $4.9 million grant from the U.S. Department of Defense, IBM is working on a separate project with five U.S. universities to build a tiny, low-power microchip that simulates the behavior of one million neurons and ten billion synapses. The goal, says IBM, is to develop brainy computers that can better predict the behavior of complex systems, such as weather or the financial markets.
The Chinese government has provided about $1.5 million to a team at Xiamen University to create artificial-brain robots with microcircuits that evolve, learn and adapt to real-world situations. Similarly, Jeff Krichmar and colleagues at the University of California, Irvine, Calif., have built an artificial-brain robot that learns to sharpen its visual perception when moving around in a lab environment, another form of emergent behavior, a form of spontaneous self-organization. And researchers at Sensopac, a project backed by a grant of €6.7 million ($9.3 million) from the European Union, have built part of an artificial mouse brain.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')r. Markram has adopted a systematic, if painstaking approach. He decided to work out the blueprint of its wiring and then use that map to rebuild the brain in an artificial form. He focused on a rat's neocortical column, or NCC, an elementary building block of the brain's neocortex, which is responsible for higher functions and thought. In a rat's case, that includes planning to obtain food.
A rat's NCC, comprised of about 10,000 neurons and their 10 million connections, functions much like a computer microprocessor. All mammals have NCCs, and the ones in humans aren't all that different from the ones in rats. However, humans have far more NCCs, which means far greater brain power. Dr. Markram figured that if a rat simulation did a good job of correctly mimicking activity in a real rat's brain, he could use the same model as a road map for simulating the human brain.
