[hillsidedigger]

Which is correct?

Both, in an intermingled sort of way.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I') think you need to read a bit about how this all works.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'H')ow do you design randomness to achieve a design?
Design by roulette wheel of chance?

[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'H')ow do you design randomness to achieve a design?
Design by roulette wheel of chance?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', ' ') $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he implication you suggest, is impossible. You cannot design random genetic changes for a randomly changing environment to achieve an end result or design.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', ' ') We disagree about to what extent an infinite and omniscient being can create an apparently random sequence.

[Thralen]

Let's see, do I believe a hypothesis that was postulated, by intelligent trained individuals and based on material evidence, or do I believe in a "theory" that was thought up to counter the original hypothesis? Hmmm, let me think...

Really now, faith is all some people have so I don't want to belittle it but... I prefer to believe those things that have material evidence, that have been observed to be true and that don't involve my brain using an invisible friend in the sky as a crutch to assist me in those things I do not understand or cannot comprehend.

Evolution is correct, Intelligent design is something thought up by those trying to argue that evolution is wrong.

Thralen

[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Thralen', 'L')et's see, do I believe a hypothesis that was postulated, by intelligent trained individuals and based on material evidence, or do I believe in a "theory" that was thought up to counter the original hypothesis? Hmmm, let me think...

Really now, faith is all some people have so I don't want to belittle it but... I prefer to believe those things that have material evidence, that have been observed to be true and that don't involve my brain using an invisible friend in the sky as a crutch to assist me in those things I do not understand or cannot comprehend.

Evolution is correct, Intelligent design is something thought up by those trying to argue that evolution is wrong.

Thralen

[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', ' ') We disagree about to what extent an infinite and omniscient being can create an apparently random sequence.

[Thralen]

Unfortunately, like many other things screwed up by humans, the bible was written by humans. dictated by god or not, it was written by people. People make mistakes, frequently. For example, my favorite bible thing to point out "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." in the king james version. This phrase was mistranslated (google the phrase for proof, too many hits to choose one to link". The words originally used actually translate to something along the lines of poisoner or one who casts spells with ill-will. So, maybe they remembered the first line right and maybe it was never mistranslated.

I grew up with a preacher for a father. I've seen enough religion to last me several lifetimes. In my (not so) humble opinion religion as a whole is a crutch. The leaders of the religion tell you what to think (I prefer to think for myself), what you should do (I prefer to determine whether an action is proper or not or, if you prefer, good or evil, on my own), beg for your money (I prefer to determine which charities and causes my money support), etc...

In addition to the above reasons, the inherent contradictions in the bible are numerous, which would not be so if a sane, loving god made sure that those he dictated to wrote correctly. Proof of the fallibility of humans? or proof of the gullibility of humans?

Here is a nice thing for you: What would happen in this time if, as in the bible, you gave your two virgin daughters to a mob to use and abuse as they like just so the mob wouldn't disturb your visitors? I say at least 10-20 years hard labor. But it was a godly man that did it in the bible.

So, finally try to resolve the difference in god between the old and new testaments. Wow, is that ever a different person so it begs the question "Why, if god exists and is perfect and infinite, is there such a difference in his word between the new and old testaments?"

In closing: Evolution has solid evidence. Faith is not evidence. Your belief is just that, a belief. So my belief (and many others) is in evolution and has material evidence to back it up. Your belief is just that, your belief. Shared by many but with no material evidence. So belief + evidence > belief.

Thralen...

[jbrovont]

I don't know about intelligent design, but there does seem to be inherent order in the universe. I don't pretend to know if that's god, or if it just couldn't have happened any other way because that's the way it is. (if you really sit and think about this it will warp your mind

A few years ago (well ok, more than a few) physicists determined that an electron knows when you're observing it, and changes its behavior based on that. Just recently, a new twist on the same experiment observed than an electron can actually alter its behavior in the *past* based on whether you're *going* to watch it in the future. Time, aparently, is no object to electrons. (youtube double slit paradox if you want to learn about this).

I tend to think order and consciousness arise at the quantum level and propogate up into everything (even us). What that is, and where it comes from...? Maybe that's god, if you want to call it that...but again, not even really a theory - just an ... idea. I don't pretend to know have the answers.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OutOfGas', 'E')volution has so many scientific holes that it must be a relgion to be believed.

Intelligent design makes more sence.

Nothing comes from nothing.

[Grautr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'E')volution is driven by random genetic mutations.
No "intelligent design" can be based upon a roulette wheel of chance.

[Grautr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', 'I') don't know about intelligent design, but there does seem to be inherent order in the universe. I don't pretend to know if that's god, or if it just couldn't have happened any other way because that's the way it is. (if you really sit and think about this it will warp your mind

A few years ago (well ok, more than a few) physicists determined that an electron knows when you're observing it, and changes its behavior based on that. Just recently, a new twist on the same experiment observed than an electron can actually alter its behavior in the *past* based on whether you're *going* to watch it in the future. Time, aparently, is no object to electrons. (youtube double slit paradox if you want to learn about this).

I tend to think order and consciousness arise at the quantum level and propogate up into everything (even us). What that is, and where it comes from...? Maybe that's god, if you want to call it that...but again, not even really a theory - just an ... idea. I don't pretend to know have the answers.

[Voice_du_More]

Those same intellectual arguments about the Bible are made frequently.

-The God of the OT does not seem the same as the God of the NT, the Bible says 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever'
- The Bible contradicts itself, the Bible says all Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, correction m instruction in righteousness.' so use it for what it was intended and not as a science book. Also there a difference between an inspired record and an inspired utterance.
- Where did Cain get his wife? He either married his sister, or he married the daughter of one of the proto-humans who frequented the Eurasian steppes during that time

In the end it all comes down to whether you are willing or not to consider the claims of the gospel as they pertain to your own personal relationship with God, Father , Son and Holy Spirit.

I personally find the Bible to be an amazingly consistent book considering that it was written by thirty-some authors over a period of 1600 years. The God we read of in Genesis 1:1 seems to me to be consistently the same God mentioned everywhere else despite the fact that one of the pillars of Christian faith is eternal judgment(Hebrews 6:1-2.)

God made it all and He has the right to do with it all as He sees fit. He has copyright.

So, my last statement here is to say that religion is not relationship. There can be ritual wrapped around relationship and things are still good, but wrapping ritual around a list of do's and don'ts does'nt cut it. Only the grace of God can cause us to stand in the faith which saves, we need Him as the electron needs the vacuum.

Science does not get it all, not by a long shot and every honest scientist I know admits that freely. Science does not disprove the existence of God. Evolution, though it be true does not disprove the existence of God, it simply cannot, because science cannot look beyond first causes, it can only say there was one.

The Big Bang is the perfect example.

a) There was a Big Bang, but what happened before that? Nothing, oops that's ex nihilo.
b) There was a Big Bang and before that there was something and something and something ad infinitum. Well now you have something that has always existed?

Both arguments exhaust science as a tool for understanding anything more than can be observed with physical instruments or inferred from data. So where is the data about what was going on ten minutes before the Big Bang?

If God chose to create using evolution that does not invalidate the story of the gospel, of mankinds need for a savior, the prophecies of coming judgment. We simply live in a very atheistic time when God's power to work wonders has not been on didsplay for a while. He is sovereign. I feel confident that He will not remain silent forever, but science will have to wait until the day of to get it's data, which will mean little because there is no baseline data to compare it too, and of course no trended number of miracles per second that will available from 7 short years of progressively growing darkness and confusion.

'When He opened the third seal,...,a loaf of bread for a day's wages and do not harm the oil and the wine.'

A preacher's son, so you know the Bible. I'll be praying for you. God bless.

[katkinkate]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', 'T')here is more that exists in heaven and earth Horatio than can be described by your science.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', ' ') We disagree about to what extent an infinite and omniscient being can create an apparently random sequence.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', ' ') Now your notion that randomness cannot be managed to an end is interesting. Is there not an entire branch of mathematics that studies deterministic chaos? I know this because there is a book on chaotic dynamical systems on the shelf just a few feet away from me. So now if I design a random walk to come from a certain distribution and then I nudge the result a bit here or there have'nt I altered the entire set of probabilities for the system? The notion that means and variances cannot be controlled to create a more likely outcome is not true.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Grautr', ' ')Why do you think they have stopped evolving?

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Thralen', 'L')et's see, do I believe a hypothesis that was postulated, by intelligent trained individuals and based on material evidence, or do I believe in a "theory" that was thought up to counter the original hypothesis? Hmmm, let me think...

Really now, faith is all some people have so I don't want to belittle it but... I prefer to believe those things that have material evidence, that have been observed to be true and that don't involve my brain using an invisible friend in the sky as a crutch to assist me in those things I do not understand or cannot comprehend.

Evolution is correct, Intelligent design is something thought up by those trying to argue that evolution is wrong.

Thralen