Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 11 Jun 2009, 13:49:10

Well, the last result of this week's bond auctions are in. And the results are . . .

Today's 30-year auction went well. Yields were actually down a bit, bidders offered 2.68 times the amount of debt being sold, the highest in a year, and indirect bidders, a class of investors that includes foreign central banks, bought 49% of the sale, the most since February 2006.
>> Article <<

The yield on yesterday's 10-year auction went up by a hefty 11 basis points. Bidders offered 2.62 times the amount of debt being sold, compared to a so-called bid-to-cover ratio of 2.39 at the last five reopenings. Indirect bidders, a class of investors that includes foreign central banks, bought 34.3% of the sale. The average in the last five sales was 23.2%.
>> Article <<

Finally, Tuesday's 3-year auction went well. The ratio of bids to notes sold was 2.82 — much higher than it has been in recent debt sales, and the yield went down just a bit.
>> Article <<

So, I guess you could call it mixed results, but overall fairly decent.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby JJ » Thu 11 Jun 2009, 15:05:30

denninger has a lot to say today about this...
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/arch ... eware.html
User avatar
JJ
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Tue 07 Aug 2007, 03:00:00

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 11 Jun 2009, 15:50:23

The big thing is 50% indirect bids on the 30-yr. FCBs are back into the treasury bond game and betting on deflation if this is a trend and not a head fake. This is a complete reversal from the past few weeks where we were headed to Mad Max. Very interesting times.
Jotapay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3394
Joined: Sat 21 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby patience » Thu 11 Jun 2009, 20:58:20

Mike Whitney thinks he has Bernanke's shenanegans figured out:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/22252

Quote: "In the next year, China will buy roughly $200 billion T-Bills while the oil producing states and the rest of the world will add about $300 billion to their stash. That leaves more than $2 trillion for the domestic market where cash-strapped investors are likely to avoid government debt like the plague. So, who's going buy that mountain of low-yield government paper?

The banks.

The Fed has been helping the banks raise reserves for the last year. In fact, excess bank reserves have skyrocketed from $96.5 billion in August 2008 to $949.6 billion by April 2009. Nearly a trillion bucks in less than a year. But, why?"

Whitney thinks this was all done to get the banks to finance the govt's impossible 2009 deficit, and goes on to explain that. He credits Karl Denninger with sniffing this out.

This all gets curiouser and curiouser. Who knew how deep this rabbit hole goes?
Local fix-it guy..
User avatar
patience
Resting in Peace
 
Posts: 3180
Joined: Fri 04 Jan 2008, 04:00:00

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby shortonoil » Fri 12 Jun 2009, 15:29:21

patience said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ike Whitney thinks he has Bernanke's shenanegans figured out:


I posted this Smirkingchimparticle in another thread. I didn’t see this one until now.

The point is why would the FED allow the banks to increase their reserves to almost a $ trillion when they were having serious solvency problems to begin with. They have to pay interest (of some sort) on that money, and they promoted it during an almost absolute credit shutdown. Why have a huge amount of cash on hand which you can’t use?

I think Karl is right on this one. The FED had an end game. Perhaps they thought that they could re-start the economy after it shutdown. I don’t think they ever imaged that the whole world was going to go into a depression. Like I’ve been saying for 5 years, the money elite don’t believe in PO, or they don't believe that it can affect them. It will be their downfall. We’ll know definitely in a year if the economy continues to decline as the model has predicted. Of course, if you haven’t made plans by then, it will be too late to do much but spin in circles.





AvailableEnergy
User avatar
shortonoil
False ETP Prophet
False ETP Prophet
 
Posts: 7132
Joined: Thu 02 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: VA USA

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby DantesPeak » Mon 15 Jun 2009, 21:22:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', '
')
The Fed has been helping the banks raise reserves for the last year. In fact, excess bank reserves have skyrocketed from $96.5 billion in August 2008 to $949.6 billion by April 2009. Nearly a trillion bucks in less than a year. But, why?"



Why? The fed has to issue enough money to prevent short term interest rates from going negative (which is a sign that a banking collapse is in progress or will start) and enough money to to jump start the dying credit system. It took about $200 billion for the first part and $800 billion for the second. BTW the Treasury still has an extra $200 billion of T bills outstanding to prevent interest rates at 0 or below.

Those authors are right about the banks just re-deposting their excess funds at the Fed. But they have no requirement to do so, and could invest that money elsewhere - which would suddenly balloon the money supply and lead to high rates of inflation.

Granted the situation is still dire and the Fed could mistakenly cause the whole financial system to fall into a black hole.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby patience » Mon 15 Jun 2009, 21:30:47

Quote:

"the banks just re-deposting their excess funds at the Fed. But they have no requirement to do so, and could invest that money elsewhere - which would suddenly balloon the money supply and lead to high rates of inflation."

Some people are predicting a run in commodities this year. If so, that excess bank money could go there and balloon commodity prices, quickly starting inflation, huh? Somewhere I saw that the Fed has more than doubled the money base this year, so are we looking at a 50%+ drop in the dollar? Bear with me, please, I'm new at this.

I'm looking for a "tell" to decide when it is starting. If this goes as I suggest here, then I can watch oil/gold/grain/food/copper/old rubber boots/orange juice prices start jumping and better dump the dollars, is my thought.
Local fix-it guy..
User avatar
patience
Resting in Peace
 
Posts: 3180
Joined: Fri 04 Jan 2008, 04:00:00

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby DantesPeak » Mon 15 Jun 2009, 23:37:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'Q')uote:

"the banks just re-deposting their excess funds at the Fed. But they have no requirement to do so, and could invest that money elsewhere - which would suddenly balloon the money supply and lead to high rates of inflation."

Some people are predicting a run in commodities this year. If so, that excess bank money could go there and balloon commodity prices, quickly starting inflation, huh? Somewhere I saw that the Fed has more than doubled the money base this year, so are we looking at a 50%+ drop in the dollar? Bear with me, please, I'm new at this.

I'm looking for a "tell" to decide when it is starting. If this goes as I suggest here, then I can watch oil/gold/grain/food/copper/old rubber boots/orange juice prices start jumping and better dump the dollars, is my thought.


That's about right. The monetary base is up more than 100% but as I mentioned somewhere the Treasury issued an extra $200 billion treasury bills, which has the effect of offsetting $200 billion of the monetary base increase.

The rest of the increase are 'free reserves' which would usually be invested by banks in treasury bills/bonds or lent out. Wall Street is usually a big borrower, and WS would not hesitate to borrow money to speculate on commodities if it saw a trend there.

That investing of free reserves by the banks could trigger inflation, but inflation is already being triggered worldwide by other countries trying to peg their currencies to the dollar by pumping up their money base and/or money supply. China is already up to a year over year gain of 26% in its money supply.

When the Fed starts to grow its money base again (within a few months), then the whole world will be pumping up inflation. If the IMF issues new SDRs to all countries, then changes in the US money base will be tripled by the rest of the world.

But we are not quite to this point yet, so markets except treasuries could still drop first.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:44:54

Almost forgot to update this.

The Treasury had a 7-year bond auction Thursday of $27 billion. It went quite well.

>>> LINK <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bonds rise after strong auction of 7-year notes
2 days ago

NEW YORK (AP) — Another strong Treasury auction is driving investors back into government debt.

Bond prices rose Thursday, sending yields lower, after the Treasury Department sold $27 billion in seven-year notes to solid demand. It was the last auction of the week, and a big relief to investors nervous about foreign buyers shying away from Treasurys due to the weakening dollar and inflation worries.

Treasury yields aren't just important to bond investors — they also affect interest rates on mortgages and other consumer loans. Mortgage rates spiked to seven-month highs in early June as inflation fears overtook the market.

This week's auctions, however, have all been robust. Thursday's auction of seven-year notes drew nearly three times as many bids as notes sold. Indirect bidding, which includes foreign buying, was high at 67 percent.

"All I can think of is that the central banks are back in the market in a fairly big way," said Tom di Galoma, head of U.S. rates trading at Guggenheim Capital Markets LLC.

[...]

In other news, after rising to 4% a few weeks ago, the 10-year yield is down to 3.54%.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby mattduke » Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:19:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'A')lmost forgot to update this.

The Treasury had a 7-year bond auction Thursday of $27 billion. It went quite well.

>>> LINK <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bonds rise after strong auction of 7-year notes
2 days ago

NEW YORK (AP) — Another strong Treasury auction is driving investors back into government debt.

Bond prices rose Thursday, sending yields lower, after the Treasury Department sold $27 billion in seven-year notes to solid demand. It was the last auction of the week, and a big relief to investors nervous about foreign buyers shying away from Treasurys due to the weakening dollar and inflation worries.

Treasury yields aren't just important to bond investors — they also affect interest rates on mortgages and other consumer loans. Mortgage rates spiked to seven-month highs in early June as inflation fears overtook the market.

This week's auctions, however, have all been robust. Thursday's auction of seven-year notes drew nearly three times as many bids as notes sold. Indirect bidding, which includes foreign buying, was high at 67 percent.

"All I can think of is that the central banks are back in the market in a fairly big way," said Tom di Galoma, head of U.S. rates trading at Guggenheim Capital Markets LLC.

[...]

In other news, after rising to 4% a few weeks ago, the 10-year yield is down to 3.54%.

2/3 of buying by foreign central banks. Free market participants are nowhere to be found.
User avatar
mattduke
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri 28 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:27:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', '2')/3 of buying by foreign central banks. Free market participants are nowhere to be found.

Now, if it was 2/3 buyers by free market participants, there would be someone here saying, "Only 1/3 were bought by foreign central banks! That must mean they think the US government is going to default!"

In fact, I'm nearly certain if I looked back through this thread I could probably find someone saying something similar to that.

So, now along comes mattduke telling us the sky is falling because there was strong interest by foreign central banks.

I suppose I should give you credit for originality.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby patience » Sat 27 Jun 2009, 22:24:36

I read over at Tickerforum that a German Bank has resigned from being a Primary Dealer of US Treasuries, apparently because their new owner wants to reduce their risk exposure. One more bank with a belly full of T's.
Local fix-it guy..
User avatar
patience
Resting in Peace
 
Posts: 3180
Joined: Fri 04 Jan 2008, 04:00:00

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sat 27 Jun 2009, 23:54:42

Bonds bought at a Treasury auction can be sold the next day. In fact if you follow the Fed weekly report on foreign holdings of Treasuries, you will quite frequently see less Treasuires held a week after the auction.

Granted if you were trader trying to guage interest rates over the next few days one auction result may help you understand the current market. But with the Treasury issing $2 trillion in net new debt this year, a $27 billion auction doesn't really predict where we are going in the next few months.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
User avatar
DantesPeak
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6277
Joined: Sat 23 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: New Jersey

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby sparky » Sun 28 Jun 2009, 00:51:52

.

Oilfinder 2 is right , the auctions went very well considering ,
there is still a bit of a traffic jam for 2 years bonds but that pretty much normal
, everybody is playing scary cat .

the price of oil is VERY steady , the northern harvest is very good ( so far ) though soybeans are a worry

So there is going to be food on the table and petrol in the tank for this year at least ,
I don't know about jobs .

.
User avatar
sparky
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Sydney , OZ

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sun 28 Jun 2009, 22:35:55

I guess they're the place to be after all! :lol:

>>> LINK <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bond Dealers Say Worst Over as Demand Soars at Treasury Sales
By Daniel Kruger

June 29 (Bloomberg) -- Wall Street’s largest bond-trading firms say the worst may be over for investors in Treasuries after government securities posted their biggest first-half losses in at least three decades.

The 16 primary dealers, which trade directly with the Federal Reserve and are obligated to bid at Treasury auctions, forecast the benchmark 10-year note yield will finish the year little changed at 3.58 percent, after rising from 2.21 percent at the end of 2008, according to a survey by Bloomberg News.

The dealers, which include JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Goldman Sachs Group Inc., say the sell-off will slow after signs emerged this month that foreign buyers are scooping up record amounts of debt being sold by the Obama administration. Plus, yields at the highest since November are luring investors speculating that the economy’s recovery may be slow.

“We have seen an incredible amount of demand,” said Richard Tang, head of fixed-income sales at primary dealer RBS Securities Inc. in Stamford, Connecticut. “A lot of it is asset reallocation, out of risk assets and commodities. It’s been significant.”

[...]
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby copious.abundance » Sun 28 Jun 2009, 22:38:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', '2')/3 of buying by foreign central banks. Free market participants are nowhere to be found.

BTW, from my article above, I think this explains at least some of your observation:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he surge in demand can’t be ignored even with a change in a rule that went into effect this month that may have raised the levels of indirect bids by eliminating a provision allowing some customer awards to be classified as dealer bids, said William O’Donnell, head of Treasury strategy at RBS.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby sparky » Thu 02 Jul 2009, 03:16:50

.

Still ....the interests rates and the value of the U.S. dollar is a worry.......... a real worry
there is plenty of bad news waiting , not least California (13%of the U.S. GDP) going in virtual bankrupcy
with plenty of other states and municipalities not far behind at a time of decreased income and increased demand for their help

this is not finance it's tight rope walking , as for the wisdom of investors the least said the better


.
User avatar
sparky
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Sydney , OZ

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 21:24:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'N')ot for long.

US to Default by summer 2009

Well, it is now summer of 2009. Still awaiting that default! :lol:

In the meantime, not only are treasuries not toxic, they're still really popular! :shock: Another good bond auction today.

>>> LINK <<<
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'u')l 6, 2009, 1:07 p.m. EST
Treasury sells $8 billion in TIPS at 1.920%
By Deborah Levine

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) - The Treasury Department sold $8 billion in 10-year Treasury Inflation Protected Securities on Monday at a rate of 1.920%. Bidders offered $2.51 for every dollar of debt offered, the highest so-called bid-to-cover in at least seven years. Indirect bidders, a class of investors that includes foreign central banks, bought 49.7% of the sale. In January, they took 47% of the sale. The proportion of sales going to indirect bidders appears to have jumped up significantly last month after a change in the way bids are tabulated. TIPS pay investors a coupon plus the rate of inflation, as measured by the consumer price index. Recently, the gap between the yield on TIPS and regular Treasurys was 1.67 percentage points. Falling equities and fears about the economic outlook kept short-term Treasurys higher. Two-year note yields, which move inversely to prices, fell 4 basis points to 0.94%, the lowest in a month.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
User avatar
copious.abundance
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Wed 26 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Cornucopia
Top

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 21:36:46

This may be off topic, but Arlington, VA will start selling their AAA/aaa bonds on the retail market starting in a week

Info on buying bonds.

I like living here. The place to be ?
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village

Re: Treasurys are 'still the place to be'

Unread postby mattduke » Mon 06 Jul 2009, 21:49:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'T')his may be off topic, but Arlington, VA will start selling their AAA/aaa bonds on the retail market starting in a week

Info on buying bonds.

I like living here. The place to be ?

Arlington, straight up, thug town: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T1RMuoQnKo
Seriously though, I never understood why someone would ever buy a government bond. Who do you think is making the payments?
User avatar
mattduke
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri 28 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron