[Auntie_Cipation]

In spite of the cultural appeal of the wholly self-sufficient man, it just doesn't work on a practical level.

In order to be fully self-sufficient, a man must be able to extract from nature enough resources to feed and clothe and shelter himself. Plus he needs to have the skills to transform those raw materials into whatever he needs. Gardening, foraging, hunting, creating fiber and using it to create clothes, creating tools from natural resources, creating building materials and then having the skills to build the shelter.

I think we can all agree that, even if a few individuals might have the ability to do this, the planet simply doesn't offer enough resources (especially in its currently damaged state) for this to be an answer for more than those very few individuals. It's not a bulk solution. And even if the population is going to come down dramatically, we still need to be seeking convivial solutions -- ie solutions that work better the more people partake of them. Solutions that only work for the first few are not solutions at all, they're just games that hobbyists or fetishists play.

Dunewalker used the key word, I think -- symbiotic relationships. After all, even a fully self-sufficient family has symbiotic relationships among the family members. Communities can be close to self-sufficient if the individuals interact symbiotically.

Hardtootell2's example of a tenant getting free housing in exchange for some labor can fit well in that category. The key, which I think is what Dune was concerned about, is the psychology of it -- if either party feels suppressed by the arrangement, that's definitely a downside. On the other hand, many of us will choose less than full freedom, less than 100% desirable, in favor of "as good as we can find". To expect to have perfect options in a time of major economic (and perhaps population) contraction is simply unrealistic IMO. Those who would rather die than give up the tiniest sliver of freedom (ie the need to accommodate any other person or community) may well have that choice. But most of us will have a range of compromise we're willing to make in order to survive the times, before we hit our "I won't go there" wall.

Bartering labor for services is not the same as indenture or oppression; it's an opportunity, and for most of us I think it's one we'll want to take advantage of in one form or another.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', '
')It's not a bulk solution.

[hardtootell-2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', '
')It's not a bulk solution.

[dunewalker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hardtootell-2', 'I')MHO-There are only two possible outcomes that are likely at this point. 1) a huge decline in population or AND 2) a huge decline in standard of living.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hardtootell-2', '
')If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that the future could be as bright as the recent past for the population in general?

[hardtootell-2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hardtootell-2', '
')If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that the future could be as bright as the recent past for the population in general?

[Auntie_Cipation]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', '
')It's not a bulk solution.

[hardtootell-2]

Let me ask this related question of the forum:

What causes a negative reaction to the idea or actions of self sufficiency?

Is it due to jealousy, fear of the unknown, attachment to the status quo? What?

Whats the best way to manage this? My appoach is to be deeply underground on my preps and not trying to explain myself or get approval from anyone.

[Auntie_Cipation]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hardtootell-2', 'L')et me ask this related question of the forum:

What causes a negative reaction to the idea or actions of self sufficiency?

Is it due to jealousy, fear of the unknown, attachment to the status quo? What?

Whats the best way to manage this? My appoach is to be deeply underground on my preps and not trying to explain myself or get approval from anyone.

[hardtootell-2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hardtootell-2', 'L')et me ask this related question of the forum:

What causes a negative reaction to the idea or actions of self sufficiency?

Is it due to jealousy, fear of the unknown, attachment to the status quo? What?

Whats the best way to manage this? My appoach is to be deeply underground on my preps and not trying to explain myself or get approval from anyone.

[the48thronin]

If the tenant/worker can find a better deal- they are likely to take it. On the other hand, I would not rule out a longer term relationship of profit sharing/land grants to someone I thought I could trust.- if prosperity shines on us.



share cropping revisited I know I know this is altruism not oppression this time right?

[hardtootell-2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('the48thronin', 'I')f the tenant/worker can find a better deal- they are likely to take it. On the other hand, I would not rule out a longer term relationship of profit sharing/land grants to someone I thought I could trust.- if prosperity shines on us.



share cropping revisited I know I know this is altruism not oppression this time right?

[hardtootell-2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('the48thronin', 'I')f the tenant/worker can find a better deal- they are likely to take it. On the other hand, I would not rule out a longer term relationship of profit sharing/land grants to someone I thought I could trust.- if prosperity shines on us.



share cropping revisited I know I know this is altruism not oppression this time right?

[turner]

I am always fascinated by these threads where people discuss the idea of self sufficiency and understand it's extremely difficult and likely necessitates other people's involvement, but yet don't see family/friends filling the gap.

I originally started with grand ideas involving family and friends but have scaled to us doing our own thing on 3 acres. However, I don't discount the idea that in the longer term many other people in our realm will come on board. I see my role as learning and implementing as much as I possibly can, but also keeping an eye on other land coming available, who might become involved, and in what capacity. Many others in our group have valuable skills to bring in, but at this stage it's very difficult financially for them to walk away from their current jobs and commitments. When things get more desperate they will likely form a different view. I guess the trick is to involve them slowly so they can contribute something (and benefit) on an ongoing basis and therefore see the long term advantages of having greater commitment.

You may see this as naive, but ultimately I don't feel that I could turn my back on them and realistically I need them. Why is it that most of the rest of you don't see it this way?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turner', '
')You may see this as naive, but ultimately I don't feel that I could turn my back on them and realistically I need them. Why is it that most of the rest of you don't see it this way?

[dunny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')I'm seeing some newbies ask for advice on LATOC and when they explain their dire financial situations, all I can think is, there but for the grace of God go I. It's gonna be Ramen Noodles and pasta with peas and hoping the grocery store shelves don't go empty.

[turner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turner', '
')You may see this as naive, but ultimately I don't feel that I could turn my back on them and realistically I need them. Why is it that most of the rest of you don't see it this way?

[Grautr]

I didnt have enough money for a doomstead. I realy would have liked one but after selling my house in 2004 I did the next best thing and downsized. I bought a houseboat and now only pay 50 Euros a month for the mooring spot instead of the 550 pounds a month mortgage on the old house.

I dont have enough room to grow all my own food at home so got an allotment nearby and also read up on hunting small game and finding wild edibles so I am covered as best I can on the food front. I just found out one of my neighbours also is into identifying wild edibles which helps.

I did this before the credit crisis though and can understand that some people just couldnt sell their house at the moment but for some it might still be an option to move into a trailer or even buy one of those mini cabins.

You realy dont need a lot of room to live in if you look at the situation from a need only point of view.

When I was a kid my next door neighbour was an old gypsy woman. Her old horse draw caravan stood in her back garden. It was only 6 or 8 meters square at the most and she lived in that until she bought the house.

[the48thronin]

This is the Psychology thread, so I have tried to limit my replies to reflect that.

However i do sometimes need to rant..LOL so here goes.

Self preparedness as differentiated from self sufficiency is the secret to finding some survival IMHO of what is coming. But the elimination of the word self is the first step to that preparedness.

People who have recognized the name I use here, (both of you lol) will know what is coming next, (but they will forgive me as they have many times before.)

The PEAK OIL debate is only a debate for those who fail to think through the reality of limited finite resources. Timing might differ depending on societal strategy, but the end game is certain to humans using OIL to build a civilization.

Self preparedness in the form of limiting needs from distance is part of the short term answer. The homestead movement of the 60s was for many of us understood to be simply one tool that might prolong our individual group but not the answer for billions of world wide ever growing populations.

The sudden turn to "self sufficiency" by some people will if the society collapses from lack of energy to sustain it in it's present form do little other than offer small rewards to the local war lords who will rule the dying hoards as long as they can.

Pretending you as an individual or small group can survive by "bunkering" is useful to preserve your own sanity, but useless at preserving a civilization through the coming difficulties.

Once you decide to spend any effort at individual survival, why not spend that same effort at group survival. If you cant spend any effort at survival, why not turn your back on what you now think and party to the end, the results will be the same for you and for the rest of humanity.

I am not addressing by this rant anyone or any post in this thread in particular, simply making a comment!

end of rant.

Hint for those preparing to live simply, a spring that never fails is worth more than a palace on the hill top, and a house built near the spring means less energy to bring water from that spring.

Also never build a home until you understand fully the term "military crest" of the hill if you live in hurricane country or tornado alley. LOL
Rusty Wade

[Serial_Worrier]

What if you live in Kansas where there are no hills to build a defend-able high position?