[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'b')ut Roe has to be understood in context.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Is it wrong then for SCOTUS to stand up and do the right thing? I dunno.

[3aidlillahi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')bortion continues to be controversial in the U.S. because 50% of people think having an abortion is the moral equivalent of getting your teeth cleaned and 50% think it's murder.

[efarmer]

There are some societal issues that are truly without solution,
always has been, and always will be. I believe life begins at
the egg becoming fertilized, some believe it does not, and this
conundrum has no solution because we don't have a soul
scanner and probably will never have one. But people seek
them out, be it DIY affairs that kill additional people, or
illegal affairs that destroy physicians who broke the rules
to circumvent the butchers who offered an alternative
and lucrative stall in a dark alley. By the way these are
the same swell folks who deal drugs and gambling and
sell protection and of course pimp. They would probably
love the government to declare a war on abortion again,
and funnel them power and money like the war on drugs
raised the price but did not staunch the supply. This would
be especially good for them since the government decided
it was too damn lucrative not to get into the gambling racket
in many of the best states and cut in on their turf. Vice
becomes tax revenue or else fighting it becomes an eternal
source of funding for a big bureaucracy full of highly
moral and compensated public servants who seem to
understand they have found never ending niches to mine
for gold.

Throwing welfare at single mothers based on child count
was a stab at the issue, and of course it presented an
equally dicey problem we did not and have not solved either.

Culture warriors feed like vampires on the clash they create,
this is why they pick and polish the eternal shortcomings and
intangible issues of humankind. It also let's them hang status
quo on the other ream of solvable but not without confronting
the entrenched lobby for, balance of the gamut of issues.

When you go to war on a hunch, but are cloaked in moral
righteousness on your belief system's moral concepts,
I think honesty demands that "collateral damage" be
reported instead as accidental abortions of child and
adult aged humans.

Kill on the hunch, save on the belief, spin on the TV,
cash in on the book. Divide the nation, fill your pockets,
quote the Constitution, put your money in the Caymans
or a holding company for the defense industry.
I don't know if enhanced interrogation is always torture
or not, but I know these folks sure as hell are.

edited by efarmer once to change fertile to fertilized

[rangerone314]

I told myself I wasn't going to step into this, partly because I'm torn on the issue, and partly because so much hypocrisy, emotion and BS gets tossed up into this issue.

I do note that some of the same people who think even using a morning after pill is murdering a human being, don't shy away from supporting wars (at least the Catholics are not hypocritical now, though) which kill humans that no one disputes are humans.

In general I disapprove of killing something if it isn't necessary and logical if it can be helped, human or otherwise. So while I would be willing to snap the neck of a person trying to hurt my family in a heartbeat, I routinely capture in my house and dump outside wolf spiders - instead of just smashing them.

I think the absolutist arguments are silly. Supporting partial birth abortions seems about as over-the-top to me as saying the preventing a zygote from growing is murder. While I'm not convinced enough of moral certitude to support banning all abortion, I also think people are fooling themselves when they think some higher absolute morality rules everything. There is only nature.

I think the middle ground, as shaky and uncertain as it is, is where the best and most rational of everything tends to be found. Griswold vs Connecticut was about at its core, the tradition of privacy within the institution of marriage. It got over-generalized into a an overall right to privacy concept which takes us into Roe.

If right-to-privacy was meant to be a general right, then specific privacy rights (searches and seizures, against self-incrimination, etc) would not have been put into the Constitution. Even looking at the 9th Amendment which stipulates about "rights not enumerated" implying the listing of rights doesn't preclude the existence of others not listed, the rational way would be to look at established traditions.

So at a personal level, I'd be leaning towards pro-life, voting in a state referendum (if Roe got overturned) I'd probably vote pro-choice (since I believe it is wrong to impose my will on others), and as a Supreme Court justice I would probably vote pro-life (since I think Roe was a bridge too far past Griswold vs Connecticut)

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If right-to-privacy was meant to be a general right, then specific privacy rights (searches and seizures, against self-incrimination, etc) would not have been put into the Constitution. Even looking at the 9th Amendment which stipulates about "rights not enumerated" implying the listing of rights doesn't preclude the existence of others not listed, the rational way would be to look at established traditions.

[rangerone314]

There is one thing I am curious about... Sotomayor being first "Latino" Supreme. Should a Mexican-American feel warm & fuzzy because a Puerto Rican-American got there? I find the whole Latino race thing to be a really odd concept. First off there is no race... you have whites, white/native, native, Asian, black, black/white, black/native, black/white/native, etc etc.

If you are Spanish speaking from Argentina and your grandparents were Welsh and Italian (both large groups there) and you come to the US, are you a Latino? Are Portuguese-speaking Brazilians Latino?

Is a Quechua-speaking (of many dialects) person from Ecuador who is maybe 99.9% Native a Latino?

How about someone from Peru descended from Japanese immigrants?

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')If right-to-privacy was meant to be a general right, then specific privacy rights (searches and seizures, against self-incrimination, etc) would not have been put into the Constitution. Even looking at the 9th Amendment which stipulates about "rights not enumerated" implying the listing of rights doesn't preclude the existence of others not listed, the rational way would be to look at established traditions.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Thus one would argue there is not an established tradition for gay marriage or abortion (in original Hypocratic oath even doctors took pledge not to do abortion) I guess the question would be at what point something becomes a long-recognized right...

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Thus one would argue there is not an established tradition for gay marriage or abortion (in original Hypocratic oath even doctors took pledge not to do abortion) I guess the question would be at what point something becomes a long-recognized right...

[Ludi]

I think I'm misunderstanding what you're arguing.

Anyway, never mind me!

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'S')upporting partial birth abortions seems about as over-the-top to me as saying the preventing a zygote from growing is murder.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'S')o I argued the right of privacy in marriage was a long recognized right, so that would be a non-listed right; in that context Griswold vs Connecticutt makes sense.

[efarmer]

Where do you feel queasy with the notion prior to post partum of
aborting a pregnancy SPG? At what point does a personal
weapon fall out of the right to bear arms? No looking down
my nose because I know I have many failings and faults
and ignorant parts as part of my bundle.

But at some point we really do have an issue with murder
that can be cloaked with a technicality, and we really do
have to face that our individual right to bear arms is meaningless
if the criminals can obtain and the rich can buy weapons of
such massive destructive capability to render our defensive
arms useless and inadequate. I think automatic weapons
begin the apogee of the curve from where it runs up to
personal protection to where it peaks and heads down to
a continual personal arms race based on what individuals
can glean, imagine, or be scared into feeling they need to
counter the weapons their potential adversaries may wield.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', 'W')here do you feel queasy with the notion prior to post partum of
aborting a pregnancy SPG?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')The question is at what point do I say to a woman, after she's just told me about how she lost her job and her boyfriend is a deadbeat and won't support her and she's getting evicted from her apartment and she doesn't know how she's going to raise the two kids she's got...at what point do I say to that woman, "Tough Luck.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hy would a woman need to get an abortion because she can't raise the baby?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', ' ')Adoption is NOT a popular choice.

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Is it wrong then for SCOTUS to stand up and do the right thing? I dunno.

[efarmer]

Thanks SPG, this sort of honest insight from someone who
has experienced the clinical and patient profile / emotional
dynamics is invaluable. It is what it is, and it is going to
happen, and to put it outside the law is to put it back
into an environment that is subject to horrible abuse of
the existing lives involved as well as almost guaranteeing
fudging of gestation limits for money or out of desperation
for the disputed new / potential lives. For me it is a triage
situation more than a patient procedure and I will abide
by my worded question not to put a value judgment on
your views of it.

On the weapons side, it is sort of a given that the grand
potentate, whatever title that may be, will always have the
best and most destructive weapons, regardless of if we
like the idea or not.

My feeling about guns being seized by the federal government
and bullets doled out with cheek swabbing for DNA and
serial numbered bullets is that much like drugs, the illicit
market will counter such things by adjusting price to where
it overcomes governmental control to satisfy demand.
This is IF such rumors would have any basis in fact.
This is another like it or not scenario in my opinion.

I pray for you and all the healers, I pray for all who
are trying to lead people to peace, and for all of my
other relatives and the great creation we are all
woven into at this time, and I pray for myself, that
I keep learning and loving, and don't run out of
humor before I run out of days. I pray my neighbor
with the coke bottle glasses shoots better than he
drives, if it would come to that.
Aho / Amen