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Cause & effect: riots, rioting and rioters pt 1 (merged) Arc

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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby Nefarious » Sat 16 May 2009, 00:02:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's our duty to defend cops


No. It is our duty to hold cops accountable for their actions. Like it is their duty for them to bring in criminals to be held accountable for their actions in a court of law. Police have to be held to certain standards or we might as well quit paying our taxes and just start paying our "protection" money to the mob. Without holding the police accountable for their actions, we run the risk of them becoming the very thing they are here to protect us from.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 16 May 2009, 01:05:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's our duty to defend cops


No. It is our duty to hold cops accountable for their actions. Like it is their duty for them to bring in criminals to be held accountable for their actions in a court of law. Police have to be held to certain standards or we might as well quit paying our taxes and just start paying our "protection" money to the mob. Without holding the police accountable for their actions, we run the risk of them becoming the very thing they are here to protect us from.


http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci ... id=7537017

I agree with you. Cops must be held to a higher standard in both restraint and in bravery. It's an almost impossible balancing act to follow sometimes.

But it's far preferable to pay officers like Fierro rather than to pay mobsters like the Flores gang to protect citizens. Not surprisingly, the locals in nearby Pasadena believe likewise and think Officer Fierro was justified in utilizing the commonly used 'distraction blow' tactic (what I earlier called an 'attention-getter'). The whole point is to resolve a potentially ugly situation without anyone getting injured.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby alpha480v » Sat 16 May 2009, 06:18:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'P')lus, the violent 'flores' gangster didn't have anything kicked out of him by Fierro. He offered one appropriately disorienting blow and a fairly mild one at that.

Just curious EB. When type that do you have a wry smirk or is it deadpan? You might have a shot at Ann Coulter's job if you can keep a straight face. I hear she makes good money. :P

Look, I dunno what your commitment is to spinning this. The cop kicked the snot out of the guy for no good reason other than that he could get away with it. You know it and I know it. You find it threatening to admit that for reasons I don't grasp, but whatever.



Deadpan.

I'm not sure why you all are spinning this into something terrible either. What's your commitment? Mine's defending a brave member of our law enforcement community from vile lies and mean remarks. And I'll do it each time without hesitation, as I have in the past right here.

Kicking the snot out of someone to me means repeatedly kicking someone to the point where they're significantly injured. Our little gangster was kicked once and was uninjured. That's the indisputable fact. It's our duty to defend cops like my Mexican American police officer friend, Officer Fierro, who performed in an exemplary manner capturing such a dangerous felon without inflicting injury on the gangster and without incurring injury to himself. I'm glad the incident ended happily. :)

Not all of them do.





I see. So as long as there were no physical sign of injury, it is ok to kick someone who is complying. :roll: The cop is a thug that needs to be disciplined. He just cost the city that he works for a bunch of money in a law suit. Hero my ass.

I'm with SPG on this. I could care less about the scumbag perp. I hope he is found guilty and spends some time in prison with bubba. But it should be up to a court of law to determine guilt and to hand out judgment. Not a testosterone pumped over zealous cop that has obvious anger management issues.

Bottom line is the perp was complying, was down and not an immediate danger. He was covered by the cop who had his gun drawn. The cop had backup that was only seconds away.The cop kicked him for no reason. Excessive force. No doubt. Case closed. A defense lawyer loves cops like this. It makes getting scumbags off easier. This is a slam dunk lawsuit against the city in the making. All because of the "hero" as you call him can't control himself
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby alpha480v » Sat 16 May 2009, 06:38:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', 'I') guess this is where some of the population sits then. Some of us don’t care at all about the end of the chase. It’s like the guy opened himself up to being “fair game”. Maybe I’m a psychopath for thinking this but the first part of the chase makes me so angry I don’t really care about what happened when the chase was over.


My problem is this. If we as a society decide it's ok for the cops to kick the crap out of people just because they're pissed, then where do we draw that line? What's the limit? You did something violent? You did something dangerous? You made me put down my doughnut and chase you? Where's the line between that and Waco? Or Ruby Ridge? Those decisions need to be made by juries, not based on how upset the cop gets. Some cops are only going to get upset after a car chase. Others will get just as upset if they see a mixed race couple together, or someone they think is gay, or someone with a bumper sticker that insults the president. I don't give a crap about the perp, I just really want some assurance that it's not going to be me getting kicked in the face next. I've definitely seen what look when the cops go on a rampage, and honestly it doesn't scare me any less than dirtbag gangsters running amok.




I agree. Good post. This is the core issue. How far will we as a society allow the people in authority to go, and accept it as "ok"?
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 16 May 2009, 07:43:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alpha480v', 'I') agree. Good post. This is the core issue. How far will we as a society allow the people in authority to go, and accept it as "ok"?


and the answer will always be the same, "It depends upon (our perception of) the alternatives."
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 16 May 2009, 09:35:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')t's our duty to defend cops


Wow. You've definitely got some career opportunities in right wing talk radio with lines like that. In my world its a fine balance of who is more destructive to the functioning of society, police or criminals. I've certainly had far more intrusions into my life personally from police than from criminals. In my world it's our duty not to defend cops, but to maintain constant vigilance for their abuses. I don't feel the need to spin some ridiculous story to excuse a cop assaulting somebody, because I've seen it before. It's happened to me. I've seen it happen to my friends. It's not that unusual. Just because you give some burly, poorly educated guy a badge and a gun, doesn't make him suddenly a model citizen. Many cops, I'm sure, are motivated by a desire to protect the community. There's a fair number though, that really get off on the power and authority and the opportunities that the job affords to do violence. If we as a society excuse that and make up cover stories to defend abusive police, then it's only a matter of sheer luck as to which one of us gets the kick next.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 16 May 2009, 09:50:33

I think EB is just trying to stir-the-shit a little....... :P
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby dunewalker » Sat 16 May 2009, 09:51:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')Look, I dunno what your commitment is to spinning this. The cop kicked the snot out of the guy for no good reason other than that he could get away with it. You know it and I know it. You find it threatening to admit that for reasons I don't grasp, but whatever.


spg, if it looks like a troll, walks like a troll and smells like a troll...
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 16 May 2009, 10:43:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alpha480v', 'I') agree. Good post. This is the core issue. How far will we as a society allow the people in authority to go, and accept it as "ok"?


and the answer will always be the same, "It depends upon (our perception of) the alternatives."



Wisdom. +1

Remember what happened in Sao Paulo in 2006? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_São_Paulo_violence

It all depends on what a society is willing to tolerate to stop criminals from attacking civil society. Remember, in London police went unarmed until a generation ago. What a contrast with today. And compared to today, what a stunning contrast is coming and there will be no turning back.

Whatever we thought was proper and appropriate to maintain civil peace a generation ago will be impossible in the coming years. In US cities in particular, as the incredible wealth generated by easy cheap energy fades away, everyone's idea of what must be done to be safe will change in a breathtaking manner whether we like it or not. And we're starting to get previews of it now. Seriously, you can hardly imagine what we're going to tolerate from law enforcement in a generation. And what we're going to experience will shock us to the core. And then it will get worse. What we see today with that one mild kick will be considered pure compassion delivered during an innocent age in comparison.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 16 May 2009, 10:51:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'S')eriously, you can hardly imagine what we're going to tolerate from law enforcement in a generation.


You see this as a good thing? You are trying to promote and hasten it?
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby dunewalker » Sat 16 May 2009, 10:54:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')Seriously, you can hardly imagine what we're going to tolerate from law enforcement in a generation. And what we're going to experience will shock us to the core.


What I CAN imagine happening, and within just a few years, as government budgets vaporize, is the Las Flores gang being in control of El Monte and nary a blue clad cop to be seen. Somehow I sense that it won't be a more dangerous place than if the present police force were to continue. Possibly, it might even be safer, as Las Flores might represent the masses of poor folks.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 16 May 2009, 10:57:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dunewalker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')Seriously, you can hardly imagine what we're going to tolerate from law enforcement in a generation. And what we're going to experience will shock us to the core.


What I CAN imagine happening, and within just a few years, as government budgets vaporize, is the Las Flores gang being in control of El Monte and nary a blue clad cop to be seen. Somehow I sense that it won't be a more dangerous place than if the present police force were to continue. Possibly, it might even be safer, as Las Flores might represent the masses of poor folks.



Anything is possible as we enter our one way journey into the abyss.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 16 May 2009, 11:08:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'S')eriously, you can hardly imagine what we're going to tolerate from law enforcement in a generation.
You see this as a good thing? You are trying to promote and hasten it?
Did I say it was good? Let me look back at what I wrote just in case .... nope, didn't say that. Didn't infer it either. Strange comment to suggest I do. As I've said many times in this thread, the non-injury outcome is the only desired outcome and that's what we have in this case. But we won't enjoy such luxury for long, I'm afraid.

As an aside, do you think the coming years will be otherwise? I see danger increasing in a manner we've never before experienced in the USA. And I suggest societies response will be something we won't tolerate today.

I don't have the power or authority to hasten or promote anything. I'm just an observer very concerned about Our Common Disaster, just like most of us here.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 16 May 2009, 11:11:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'D')id I say it was good?
Yeah. Absolutely. You said it's my DUTY to support cops needlessly kicking people in the face.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'd')o you think the coming years will be otherwise?

I think governments, with police as their cudgel, will continue to be a worse vexation than are criminals. I think it will continue until people throw them off the yolk and create for themselves a better society. More cops and more cop violence will never make a dent in the crime problem. Until people learn to defend and protect themselves, we will continue to be infested both with criminal violence and police violence.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 16 May 2009, 11:46:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'D')id I say it was good?


Yeah. Absolutely. You said it's my DUTY to support cops needlessly kicking people in the face.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'd')o you think the coming years will be otherwise?


I think governments, with police as their cudgel, will continue to be a worse vexation than are criminals. I think it will continue until people throw them off the yolk and create for themselves a better society. More cops and more cop violence will never make a dent in the crime problem. Until people learn to defend and protect themselves, we will continue to be infested both with criminal violence and police violence.



I said (goodness, how many times have I said this!) it was our duty to support and defend cops apprehending dangerous felons without injuring them... as our good friend and everyone's hero Officer Fierro successfully did. :) Your remark read as if you were suggesting I thought it was 'good' that societies decay will bring about violent responses from police.

Your prediction of the future could very well come true. But in places like LA, Bay Area, Chicago, etc... I rather doubt it. I just can't imagine society concluding lawful enforcement authority is worse than violence performed by unrestrained purely race-based groups such as MS 13, the Mongrels, the AB, and the Bloods.

But we'll certainly experience things from both police and criminals we can't possibly imagine today, so anything's possible.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby dunewalker » Wed 20 May 2009, 20:18:32

How about this one?:

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/nation ... ting_Video
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 20 May 2009, 20:23:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dunewalker', 'H')ow about this one?:


Wow! That would make an excellent seatbelt PSA too. Pretty much the same story as the case that started this thread. The guy was clearly homicidal in the way he's driving, but does he really need to be beaten by five guys once he's knocked unconscious in the crash?
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby dunewalker » Wed 20 May 2009, 20:52:26

"Crew{an attorney}, who did not represent Warren in the criminal case, said he fled in the van because he was confronted by a man who never identified himself as an officer, was not in uniform and drove after him in an unmarked car. She said he had not been accused of any crime when the pursuit began.

She said Warren, who was hospitalized for a few days after the chase, was 'totally unconscious' when he was beaten and did not know it happened until the video surfaced."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_ ... ting_video

If I was a black man in AL or LA, I'd probably have attempted to escape too, in a similar situation. It appears this man was not a criminal, but was the victim of thugs that made him into one, then punished him for attempting to survive.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Thu 21 May 2009, 09:51:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dunewalker', 'H')ow about this one?:


Wow! That would make an excellent seatbelt PSA too. Pretty much the same story as the case that started this thread. The guy was clearly homicidal in the way he's driving, but does he really need to be beaten by five guys once he's knocked unconscious in the crash?


I saw that yesterday too. A quite shocking and chilling video.

Same story indeed, except (1) at no time was an officer alone with the guy and (2) he appeared badly hurt and already disoriented making a 'moderate disorienting blow' pointless. In this case, every strike seems to constitute a felony IMO and each of the officers engaged should face criminal charges. Cases like this one make all cops look bad.
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Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sat 23 May 2009, 21:39:09

These took place in New York:

Man runs over traffic cop to avoid a ticket.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he 26-year-old agent was about to write a ticket for a double-parked car when Grullon allegedly ran to the vehicle, got in and tried to drive away, police said.

As he made his escape, the car knocked the agent to the ground and then drove over her, crushing her legs.

Tthe traffic agent is in guarded condition at St. Barnabas Hospital, police said.

Surveillance video captures the man believed to be Grullon wearing a red shirt and dark pants running across the street to his 2002 black Ford Taurus. The Bronx man has been charged with felony assault and leaving the scene of an accident.


Cop ask janitor to hold his gun for him and says, "shoot him if you need to."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he handoff happened at the end of a wild chase through Manhattan on Friday.

Police spent an hour trying to collar a motorist, 42-year-old Jeffrey McNair, who struck a taxi and a jogger (twice), then fled on foot after hitting a van.

The suspect slipped into a basement and tried to disguise himself as a janitor when the real maintenance man spotted him and went for help, police said.

The officer who responded was trying to cuff the suspect with his gun drawn when the weapon wound up in hands of janitor Placido Contreras.

Contreras, who had never held a gun before, told The New York Post he only had the weapon for a moment. "Keep your eyes on him and shoot him if you have to," he said the cop told him. Police deny Contreras and the officer spoke.
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