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THE Torture Thread (merged)

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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 11 May 2009, 14:15:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', ' ')show me where you responded to my direct question with a direct answer.


This is the third time you've asked me that after twice asking me your questions. Five times on the same questions is about enough, I think.

I've already suggested you go back to your posts asking me questions and look at my subsequent posts where my answers to your questions appear.



-------------------

I think there is a simple explanation for your bizarre repetition of the same question. its an old lawyer's trick during a cross-examination of a "hostile" witness to demand a "yes" or "no" answer to a complex question---you seem to desperately want to do this lawyer's trick.

the old lawyer's trick

Are you by any chance an old lawyer? Did you learn your "chat page" cross-examination-style technique from watching Perry Mason re-runs on TV? For some reason you are stuck on doing a corny Perry Mason "cross-examination" routine rather then discussing this important political issue. :roll:
Image


..... yes or no?


Thats the sixth time you've asked the same question is different ways during this cross examination, Counselor....You are a very clever lawyer, Mr. Perry Mason, but you aren't going to trick me into contradicting my five prior answers. :roll:


You are a coward who lacks the courage of your convictions. You "win". I no longer care what you have to say, because you say nothing. 7730 posts from you, and not one actually says anything.

This and this alone has earned you a place on my ignore list. That makes you the only current poster to carry that distinction. Congradulations, you've earned it.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 14:23:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '1'). Are you implying that voluntary waterboarding isn't torture, but involuntary waterboarding is torture? If its torture, why would it matter if it is voluntary or not? Drilling someone's arm with a power drill is torture whether or not it is voluntary, don't you think?


Of course that's what I'm saying. If you enjoy subjecting yourself to what most others would consider pain and/or suffering, then it would not be torture in my opinion. At the lollapalooza side show one of the freaks let people drive nails through his tongue. Not torture if you volunteer, torture if someone holds you down and does the same thing.


I see your point. That makes the torture issue even more complicated.

1. So you don't think waterboarding should be made illegal in the US?


Absolutely not, if it is done between consenting adults.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '2'). POWs and spies and unlawful combatants are imprisoned against their will, sometimes for years at a time. Does that make their very capture and imprisonment torture since it is involuntary?


This is governed by international laws and treaties. A country can elect to be a rogue nation, not governed by the rules of civilization if it wants. In a democracy, that should be done by the will of the people.

I also believe a government has things that need to be kept secret, at least for a period of time. But, there needs to be parameters on how that is done. And, there are (as far as we know) parameters on this in the US, and we may see if these parameters were exceeded - or not. The current set of politicians may decide the whole thing is too hot a potato and wish it away - for now. If that happens I hope the record is preserved so that in 50 years or so, if someone is still around, they can release the information and the country at that time can learn whatever lesson.

A single person or a small cabal should not have the ability to declare secret laws or have themselves exempted from them in any case, in my opinion.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 14:26:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '7')730 posts from you, and not one actually says anything.

This and this alone has earned you a place on my ignore list.


Wow, I hadn't realized he had so many posts. Most of them since Obama was nominated I bet !
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 14:34:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '2'). POWs and spies and unlawful combatants are imprisoned against their will, sometimes for years at a time. Does that make their very capture and imprisonment torture since it is involuntary?


This is governed by international laws and treaties. A country can elect to be a rogue nation, not governed by the rules of civilization if it wants. In a democracy, that should be done by the will of the people.

I also believe a government has things that need to be kept secret, at least for a period of time. But, there needs to be parameters on how that is done. And, there are (as far as we know) parameters on this in the US, and we may see if these parameters were exceeded - or not. The current set of politicians may decide the whole thing is too hot a potato and wish it away - for now. If that happens I hope the record is preserved so that in 50 years or so, if someone is still around, they can release the information and the country at that time can learn whatever lesson.

A single person or a small cabal should not have the ability to declare secret laws or have themselves exempted from them in any case, in my opinion.


1. Actually, the US is not a democracy. It is a republic. In actuality, we elect the president and our representatives to run the goverment rather then having governance from the direct "will of the people". The will of the people in the US is expressed only through the election by majority (or plurality vote) for elected representatives and the president.

2. Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington. Obama seems to think the CIA should consist only of a group of folks who sit in DC in a glass room at the public library where they openly use google to get all its information, rather then a secret intelligence organization set up to secretly skirt the laws of other countries to obtain intelligence about the world.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 14:52:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '
')..... a place on my ignore list. That makes you the only current poster to carry that distinction. Congradulations, you've earned it.


OK, ok. You win. I'll give you the one word answer you are demanding. Yes. YES. Was that it? Or was it no? never? almost never? sometimes? Maybe? Whatever? ennui? perfection?

Can I hypenate? How about Voluntary-no-involuntary-yes? how about its'-complicated? How about It-depends? How about there-are-shades-of-grey-in-our-wonderful-old-world...its-naive-to-see-everything-only-in-shades-of black-and-white?

[smilie=hello.gif]
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 15:19:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '1'). Actually, the US is not a democracy. It is a republic. In actuality, we elect the president and our representatives to run the goverment rather then having governance from the direct "will of the people". The will of the people in the US is expressed only through the election by majority (or plurality vote) for elected representatives and the president.


We agree, the US is not a democracy, but a republic. So ?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '2'). Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington.


It's fortunate we have a process to deal with and a place to put people who do illegal things then, right ?
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 11 May 2009, 15:40:14

For those here that support the idea of torturing suspects, obstensibly to gain information, how far are you willing to take it?

If you captured family of the suspect, say the wife and baby, would you be willing to torture the baby in front of the suspect and his wife in order to get him to cooperate, to save lives?
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 19:01:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington.


It's fortunate we have a process to deal with and a place to put people who do illegal things then, right ?


What process is that? Do you mean Obama declassifying secret CIA documents about torture and then promising to protect the torturers in the CIA from being fired, prosecuted or even being docked an hour's pay for torturing people?
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 19:03:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '.').. torture the baby in front of the suspect and his wife in order to get him to cooperate, to save lives?


You must watch FOX-TV...that very scenario was on "24" about six weeks ago. :roll:
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 19:26:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington.


It's fortunate we have a process to deal with and a place to put people who do illegal things then, right ?


What process is that? Perhaps you mean the CIA getting an OK for their program from Congress by giving briefings to Nancy Pelosi and others in Congress on the Intelligence oversight committees about their torture/interrogation program, and then having sleazy dem pols like Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Harry Reid etc. lie and claim they were never briefed on it even as the CIA releases memos showing they were indeed briefed? :roll:
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby jboogy » Mon 11 May 2009, 19:42:15

Dreamtwister wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '7')730 posts from you, and not one actually says anything.


Ouch 8O

I'd offer condolences but I know your instructional guidelines do not have response selections in reply to pity.

Christopher Hitchens thought waterboarding wasn't torture, until he got waterboarded. And there is a huge difference between undergoing it voluntarily, versus having it done to you by people who hate your guts and could, quite conceivably, "accidentally" kill you, and get away with it.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 19:52:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington.


It's fortunate we have a process to deal with and a place to put people who do illegal things then, right ?


What process is that?


That would be the legal/justice system and associated processes. In many cases, the political system intersects with the execution of the process such as prosecutorial discretion excercised by an elected DA or directly in the case of presidential impeachment. I'm not a lawyer so I shouldn't be the one to give a treatise.

I'm suprised at your question. Given, that not too long ago you were all over a member for displaying some signs along a freeway. In that case, you advocated the going after the guy for littering. It's all basically the same system.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 20:04:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington.


It's fortunate we have a process to deal with and a place to put people who do illegal things then, right ?


What process is that?


That would be the legal/justice system and associated processes. In many cases, the political system intersects with the execution of the process such as prosecutorial discretion excercised by an elected DA or directly in the case of presidential impeachment. I'm not a lawyer so I shouldn't be the one to give a treatise.

I'm suprised at your question.


I'm surprised at your answer.

If you really think torturers should be handled by the legal/justice system, then why aren't you outraged that Obama is shielding the CIA torturers from the US and international legal/justice systems.....? :badgrin:
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 21:01:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')Presidents have ALWAYS had spies and secret intelligence people doing illegal things, going back to the days of the Continental Congress and George Washington.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'I')t's fortunate we have a process to deal with and a place to put people who do illegal things then, right ?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')hat process is that?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'T')hat would be the legal/justice system and associated processes. In many cases, the political system intersects with the execution of the process such as prosecutorial discretion excercised by an elected DA or directly in the case of presidential impeachment. I'm not a lawyer so I shouldn't be the one to give a treatise.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I')f you really think torturers should be handled by the legal/justice system, then why aren't you outraged that Obama is shielding the CIA torturers from the US and international legal/justice systems.....? :badgrin:

That is the legal system handling it. We know the CIA waterboarded and performed other acts of torture, we know they destroyed tape evidence of their crimes. We know Obama would pardon them should charges be brought against those individuals. There are pros and cons to all that relative to the good of the country, in my opinion. I think there are good arguments on either side.

Obama hasn't said yet whether he would pardon higher officials. Maybe ultimately the right thing to do would be to pardon Cheney and others, but I would like to know more. For example, which members of congress knew and what they knew. I'd like for their to be a more open discussion about how my country will conduct ourselves in these things. I think keeping the possibility of legal action open might facilitate that, although maybe it won't. An actual prosecution would be very contentious. It may be enough that the country learn what we can from this sad part of our history. Seems like that is what usually happens, although it may that the only option is to wait for some time to pass and the politics of it is not as fresh - for a full accounting anyway.

It may be that Bush issued secret pardons to people already. Since he believed he could make secret laws, I don't see why he wouldn't think he could issue secret pardons.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 12 May 2009, 16:09:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')That is the legal system handling it.


This is the legal system being obstructed by threats from Obama

Obama threatens British courts to cover up torture, protect CIA torturers
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 13 May 2009, 08:13:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '.').. torture the baby in front of the suspect and his wife in order to get him to cooperate, to save lives?


You must watch FOX-TV...that very scenario was on "24" about six weeks ago. :roll:


Actually the only show I watch is "Lost" on ABC. I spend most of my spare time improving the land square foot by square foot. (I try to do about 16 sqFt per day)
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 13 May 2009, 12:46:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '.').. torture the baby in front of the suspect and his wife in order to get him to cooperate, to save lives?


You must watch FOX-TV...that very scenario was on "24" about six weeks ago. :roll:


Actually the only show I watch is "Lost" on ABC. I spend most of my spare time improving the land square foot by square foot. (I try to do about 16 sqFt per day)


Good choice. TV is utter waste of time, but depending on the season I watch House, 24, NBA, March Madness, NFL and a smattering of news on PBS and BBC.

PS: On "24" the beautiful but tough female FBI agent pretended to threaten the child, the parent caved in and spilled the beans about the WMDs, and 24 careened on to the next improbable event.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 13 May 2009, 19:10:26

You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders. [2:15]

Jessie slams Obama for not prosecuting torturers and those that ordered it.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 13 May 2009, 20:23:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '[')url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0]You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.[/url] [2:15]

Jessie slams Obama for not prosecuting torturers and those that ordered it.


Jesse, like many people, doesn't understand why the CIA was conducting the water torture sessions. The CIA water torture was never intended to get confessions. The point was to get information. :roll:

.
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Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 13 May 2009, 20:39:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '[')url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0]You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.[/url] [2:15]

Jessie slams Obama for not prosecuting torturers and those that ordered it.


Jesse, like many people, doesn't understand why the CIA was conducting the water torture sessions. The CIA water torture was never intended to get confessions. The point was to get information. :roll:

.


That's a good point, but after you get the information that Cheney was behind the Tate murders, you still need to decide whether to let Manson go.
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