Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Torture Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 07 May 2009, 17:15:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')aterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it. :idea:

Is there a law against dangling someone over the edge of a building and threatening to drop them 30 floors?

How about a specific law against power-drilling holes in someone's eye sockets?


Yup. Dangling someone and threatening them or power-drilling them might be considered terroristic threatening and criminal assault and attempted murder, all felonies. No one would volunteer to be powerdrilled or dangled off a building. The police would stop it if they saw it.

However, waterboarding clearly isn't a crime. The Congress considered specific legislation to outlaw it, but didn't pass it a couple of years ago and people are doing it all the time without being charged with crimes---just check out YouTube....And I personally saw some folks voluntarily doing it in DC on a nice sunny spring day. The crowd hissed and applauded the show but nobody called the cops to report a crime. No police strolling by stopped to arrest anyone. It wasn't a crime.

Maybe Obama should send a bill to Congress to make waterboarding a crime?


What about making prisoners stack themselves into pyramids naked? Is there a law against that ? Didn't Bush send a bunch of soldiers to jail for stuff like that ?


The military prison guards who did that soldiers were convicted under the uniform military code of justice.

The military code is not the same as the civil code. For instance, under the military code you can be court-martialed for having an affair with someone or for not shaving and dressing sloppily or for 'bad conduct"----things that aren't criminal offenses under the civil law.

Waterboarding a prisoner would probably also be a court-martial offense under the military code even though it doesn't seem to be against the law under our current federal statutes. 8)
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Fri 08 May 2009, 13:52:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', 'Y')ou have the right to speak, and the right to assemble,


Been to a "free speech zone" lately?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', 'a')nd the right to vote,


One word: Gerrymander. Your vote is meaningless.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', 'a')nd the right to use the law for what it was intended, to protect your freedom, to ensure it.


Are these the same laws the "elite" write? The same laws that are enforced by courts to which the "elite" appoint judges?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'T')here is no way to say what would have happened had they not done what they were told.


The results of the Stanford prison experiments are in disagreement with your assertion. Any time you put a group of individuals in a position of power over another group of individuals, the group in power invariably moves toward dehumanization and abuse of the prisoners. The trend must be actively opposed at all times, or it will develop organically.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'U')nder international law, anyone who is involved with torture, including government officials who protect the torturers, as Obama is doing, are complicit in the crime of torture.

Does that, or does it not include the men and women who authorized it in the first place?

You can't have it both ways, PA. There are only 2 options on the table:

1) If Obama is guilty of war crimes for shielding torturers, then Bush is guilty of war crimes for ordering the torture in the first place

or

2) If Bush is not guilty of war crimes for ordering torture, Obama isn't guilty of war crimes for shielding the torturers.

Which is it?
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby ForlornHope » Fri 08 May 2009, 14:35:48

I still don't understand why this is so astounding to some folks. Torture and death have come down through the ages since complex societies were first formed. The Dark Ages, The Medieval times; do people truely think we as a society are any better than these? Even America that was considered once the bastion of Democracy and all things fair (whether you buy into that concept or not), is no different than any power that feels threatened. It will use whatever means necessary to protect itself, rightly or wrongly.
Forlorn Hope
Be kind to friend and kin, and reward not their trespasses against you; bear and forbear, and win for yourself thereby long enduring praise of men.
It is their lot who stand with the great that they enjoy high honors, and are more respected than others, but stand often in danger of their lives.
User avatar
ForlornHope
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 12:31:57
Location: Canada
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 08 May 2009, 22:05:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'U')nder international law, anyone who is involved with torture, including government officials who protect the torturers, as Obama is doing, are complicit in the crime of torture.



1) If Obama is guilty of war crimes for shielding torturers, then Bush is guilty of war crimes for ordering the torture in the first place

or

2) If Bush is not guilty of war crimes for ordering torture, Obama isn't guilty of war crimes for shielding the torturers.

Which is it?


According to Obama its #1....Obama thinks waterboarding is torture so according the ACLU and UN Obama is commiting a war crime by shielding the torturers.

According to Bush its #2....Bush doesn't think waterboarding is torture so in his mind, no war crimes occurred when he ordered it done no matter what the UN says.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Sat 09 May 2009, 01:11:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'U')nder international law, anyone who is involved with torture, including government officials who protect the torturers, as Obama is doing, are complicit in the crime of torture.



1) If Obama is guilty of war crimes for shielding torturers, then Bush is guilty of war crimes for ordering the torture in the first place

or

2) If Bush is not guilty of war crimes for ordering torture, Obama isn't guilty of war crimes for shielding the torturers.

Which is it?


According to Obama its #1....Obama thinks waterboarding is torture so according the ACLU and UN Obama is commiting a war crime by shielding the torturers.

According to Bush its #2....Bush doesn't think waterboarding is torture so in his mind, no war crimes occurred when he ordered it done no matter what the UN says.


But which do you believe it to be?

Come on PA, you have never been shy about offering your opinions before. Why so coy now, when you're being asked for it?
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby jboogy » Sat 09 May 2009, 10:05:00

Bush is guilty, Obama's guilty for not trying to prosecute Bush. It's all academic anyway. Only those who lose wars have to answer for their war crimes. Who is going to come and grab our torturers and haul them off to the Hague? That Spanish judge? If Hitler had developed the bomb and forced capitulation from the allies, then the holocaust would never have "officially" happened, Nuremburg would not have happened. Those that are still standing when the dust settles get to write the history books.

you were doing great Voice-du-jour till you got to that Gods mercy through Jesus stuff, now I have to re-examine everything you wrote through a slightly sharper lens.
Perhaps the population would be less swayed to socialism if we had fewer examples of socialism from our "Free Market Capitalists". -----fiddler dave
User avatar
jboogy
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Mon 06 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: the place where smartasses dwell
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 09 May 2009, 13:41:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'U')nder international law, anyone who is involved with torture, including government officials who protect the torturers, as Obama is doing, are complicit in the crime of torture.



1) If Obama is guilty of war crimes for shielding torturers, then Bush is guilty of war crimes for ordering the torture in the first place

or

2) If Bush is not guilty of war crimes for ordering torture, Obama isn't guilty of war crimes for shielding the torturers.

Which is it?


According to Obama its #1....Obama thinks waterboarding is torture so according the ACLU and UN Obama is commiting a war crime by shielding the torturers.

According to Bush its #2....Bush doesn't think waterboarding is torture so in his mind, no war crimes occurred when he ordered it done no matter what the UN says.


But which do you believe it to be?



I made that quite clear in multiple posts above. Read those again if you didn't get it...I'll summarize briefly below:

1. Waterboarding isn't a crime in the US right now. People do it all the time. I watched a MoveOn.org guy volunteer to get waterboarded on a fine spring day in DC while I was having lunch, and it didn't look like severe torture to me or I would've called the cops or tried to stop it myself. I've seen people get wiped out worse and take in more water while surfing.

Torture, IMHO, is something so horrible people don't volunteer to have it done to them---you'll never see a MoveOn.org volunteer to have his bones broken or his muscles drilled during an outdoor show in DC, because those things are actually torture.....I can assume Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid felt the same way when they approved water torture at their CIA briefings, even though they are lying about it now.

2. Since Waterboarding is perfectly legal now, I think Obama and the Congress should pass a law making waterboarding illegal. The Congress failed to do this during the last session, and they have no excuse now for not making it illegal ASAP. Once waterboarding is illegal, then it would make sense to charge people with crimes for doing it. Until waterboarding is against the law, people will continue to do it on YouTube or for lunchtime entertainment in DC.

3. Obama says he believes that waterboarding is torture. Since he holds those beliefs, I don't understand why he doesn't immediately fire the torturers in his own government instead of hiding them and protecting them from prosecution. What kind of man protects torturers? Obama fired his own staffer at the White House for flying Air Force One over NYC....isn't torture worse then that?
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Sat 09 May 2009, 14:09:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')orture, IMHO, is something so horrible people don't volunteer to have it done to them---you'll never see a MoveOn.org volunteer to have his bones broken or his muscles drilled during an outdoor show in DC, because those things are actually torture.....I can assume Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid felt the same way when they approved water torture at their CIA briefings, even though they are lying about it now.


So are you saying that you do not believe waterboarding is torture, or are you dodging the question by turning it into a partisan debate?

I'm not asking what the law says, nor am I asking you to point out any gross hypocrisy (I freely admit there's plenty of that to go around). It's a simple yes or no question, and I'm looking for a direct answer.

Do you believe waterboarding torture or not?

I want to see you say it.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 09 May 2009, 14:28:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')orture, IMHO, is something so horrible people don't volunteer to have it done to them---you'll never see a MoveOn.org volunteer to have his bones broken or his muscles drilled during an outdoor show in DC, because those things are actually torture.....I can assume Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid felt the same way when they approved water torture at their CIA briefings, even though they are lying about it now.



I'm not asking what the law says, nor am I asking you to point out any gross hypocrisy (I freely admit there's plenty of that to go around). It's a simple yes or no question, and I'm looking for a direct answer.

Do you believe waterboarding torture or not?

I want to see you say it.


I gave you a direct answer above. Then I answered you again when you asked again.

I want to see you read it. :)
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Sun 10 May 2009, 03:04:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I') gave you a direct answer above. Then I answered you again when you asked again.


No, you didn't. You dodged the question.

So which is it?
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 10 May 2009, 13:28:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I') gave you a direct answer above. Then I answered you again when you asked again.


No, you didn't.


Yes I did :roll:

-----------

I posted my opinions several times in this topic and then I answered you directly twice more when you asked.

Your are not being truthful when you claim I didn't answer you---I've answered you twice...
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 11 May 2009, 00:44:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I') gave you a direct answer above. Then I answered you again when you asked again.


No, you didn't.


Yes I did :roll:

-----------

I posted my opinions several times in this topic and then I answered you directly twice more when you asked.

Your are not being truthful when you claim I didn't answer you---I've answered you twice...


Humour me. Pretend I'm a typical voter who can't balance his own chequebook and answer it again. Or better yet, show me where you responded to my direct question with a direct answer.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 01:01:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', ' ')show me where you responded to my direct question with a direct answer.


This is the third time you've asked me that after twice asking me your questions. Five times on the same questions is about enough, I think.

I've already suggested you go back to your posts asking me questions and look at my subsequent posts where my answers to your questions appear.



-------------------

I think there is a simple explanation for your bizarre repetition of the same question. its an old lawyer's trick during a cross-examination of a "hostile" witness to demand a "yes" or "no" answer to a complex question---you seem to desperately want to do this lawyer's trick.

the old lawyer's trick

Are you by any chance an old lawyer? Did you learn your "chat page" cross-examination-style technique from watching Perry Mason re-runs on TV? For some reason you are stuck on doing a corny Perry Mason "cross-examination" routine rather then discussing this important political issue. :roll:
Image
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 11 May 2009, 07:38:38

Its so obvious waterboarding is not torture.

After all, the Spanish used it during the Spanish Inquisition, the Japanese and the Gestapo used waterboarding in WWII. If it was good enough for them, why shouldn't it be good enough for us? After all, doesn't Big Brother know best?
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 11 May 2009, 10:00:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', ' ')show me where you responded to my direct question with a direct answer.


This is the third time you've asked me that after twice asking me your questions. Five times on the same questions is about enough, I think.

I've already suggested you go back to your posts asking me questions and look at my subsequent posts where my answers to your questions appear.



-------------------

I think there is a simple explanation for your bizarre repetition of the same question. its an old lawyer's trick during a cross-examination of a "hostile" witness to demand a "yes" or "no" answer to a complex question---you seem to desperately want to do this lawyer's trick.

the old lawyer's trick

Are you by any chance an old lawyer? Did you learn your "chat page" cross-examination-style technique from watching Perry Mason re-runs on TV? For some reason you are stuck on doing a corny Perry Mason "cross-examination" routine rather then discussing this important political issue. :roll:
Image


It's not a complex question at all. Do you personally believe waterboarding is torture, yes or no?
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Dreamtwister
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon 06 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 10:37:36

Cheney on Face the Nation

About the torture program:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')CHIEFFER: Did President Bush know everything you knew?

CHENEY: I certainly, yes, have every reason to believe he knew -- he knew a great deal about the program. He basically authorized it. I mean, this was a presidential-level decision. And the decision went to the president. He signed off on it.


Interesting way to answerr.

Personally, I believe involuntary waterboarding is torture. I suppose there are more and less severe forms of torture and the question that still remains with any technique is whether it is something you endorse.

Really, the golden rule should apply. If we use a technique then we must also endorse the use of the technique on our own citizens by the enemy. Does anyone disagree with this?
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 12:00:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', ' ')show me where you responded to my direct question with a direct answer.


This is the third time you've asked me that after twice asking me your questions. Five times on the same questions is about enough, I think.

I've already suggested you go back to your posts asking me questions and look at my subsequent posts where my answers to your questions appear.



-------------------

I think there is a simple explanation for your bizarre repetition of the same question. its an old lawyer's trick during a cross-examination of a "hostile" witness to demand a "yes" or "no" answer to a complex question---you seem to desperately want to do this lawyer's trick.

the old lawyer's trick

Are you by any chance an old lawyer? Did you learn your "chat page" cross-examination-style technique from watching Perry Mason re-runs on TV? For some reason you are stuck on doing a corny Perry Mason "cross-examination" routine rather then discussing this important political issue. :roll:
Image


..... yes or no?


Thats the sixth time you've asked the same question is different ways during this cross examination, Counselor....You are a very clever lawyer, Mr. Perry Mason, but you aren't going to trick me into contradicting my five prior answers. :roll:
Last edited by Plantagenet on Mon 11 May 2009, 12:29:38, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 12:08:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '[')url=http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5004452n]Cheney on Face the Nation[/url]

About the torture program:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')CHIEFFER: Did President Bush know everything you knew?

CHENEY: I certainly, yes, have every reason to believe he knew -- he knew a great deal about the program. He basically authorized it. I mean, this was a presidential-level decision. And the decision went to the president. He signed off on it.


Interesting way to answerr.

Personally, I believe involuntary waterboarding is torture. I suppose there are more and less severe forms of torture and the question that still remains with any technique is whether it is something you endorse.

Really, the golden rule should apply. If we use a technique then we must also endorse the use of the technique on our own citizens by the enemy. Does anyone disagree with this?


1. Are you implying that voluntary waterboarding isn't torture, but involuntary waterboarding is torture? If its torture, why would it matter if it is voluntary or not? Drilling someone's arm with a power drill is torture whether or not it is voluntary, don't you think?

2. I disagree that the US has to "endorse the use" of this technique on our own citizens. In the real world, EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH has a secret intelligence service. The whole point of having a secret intelligence service is that it does things in secret that the government doesn't want to publically endorse....things it doesn't even want to be made public. Many of these secret things are criminal....the secret intelligence services kidnap people, interrogate them, and yes torture them to obtain intelligence....thats why they are secret. Up until Obama, the CIA very rarely did these things in secret just like other countries did....and did not endorse the use of torture against US citizens.

In actuality, Obama's exposure of the secret CIA programs ends the CIA's ability to do torture and other horrible things, while leaving foreign intelligence services free to continue to torture and do other horrible things to Americans.
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 11 May 2009, 13:53:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '1'). Are you implying that voluntary waterboarding isn't torture, but involuntary waterboarding is torture? If its torture, why would it matter if it is voluntary or not? Drilling someone's arm with a power drill is torture whether or not it is voluntary, don't you think?


Of course that's what I'm saying. If you enjoy subjecting yourself to what most others would consider pain and/or suffering, then it would not be torture in my opinion. At the lollapalooza side show one of the freaks let people drive nails through his tongue. Not torture if you volunteer, torture if someone holds you down and does the same thing.
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: US interrogators may have killed dozens, tortured to death

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 11 May 2009, 14:08:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '1'). Are you implying that voluntary waterboarding isn't torture, but involuntary waterboarding is torture? If its torture, why would it matter if it is voluntary or not? Drilling someone's arm with a power drill is torture whether or not it is voluntary, don't you think?


Of course that's what I'm saying. If you enjoy subjecting yourself to what most others would consider pain and/or suffering, then it would not be torture in my opinion. At the lollapalooza side show one of the freaks let people drive nails through his tongue. Not torture if you volunteer, torture if someone holds you down and does the same thing.


I see your point. That makes the torture issue even more complicated.

1. So you don't think waterboarding should be made illegal in the US?

2. POWs and spies and unlawful combatants are imprisoned against their will, sometimes for years at a time. Does that make their very capture and imprisonment torture since it is involuntary?
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests



cron