[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'I')f I had been ordered to torture you, I would have.

[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', ' ')The civil war is coming.

[jasonraymondson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'I')f I had been ordered to torture you, I would have.

[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'I')f I had been ordered to torture you, I would have.

[jasonraymondson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'I')f I had been ordered to torture you, I would have.

[Voice_du_More]

I do acknowledge your point Jason that most people are born and will never rise very far under the current world system (or any that has existed.) I guess what at least some of us try to work toward is a more ethical world. Simply rolling over and letting despotism reign unchecked does'nt sound like much fun. I think the sad part about where Americans are right now is well,...we still like our entitlements and amenities too much and they keep coming (relatively speaking) so no need for radical change.

Obama did what we expected (or feared) he would. He ran an amazing centrist campaign and then veered sharply left after getting elected on some issues and sharply right on others. He is a perfect candidate for President of the world, he knows how to appear to be a man of the people while largely serving the interests of those who have power. G.W. was the same way and alot of us voted for him too.

Is it worth making a big fuss? I don't know. If more people were willing to make a fuss it might be.

I was considering escalating things with this post, but I have seen many of your posts and you are a smart guy. I just don't understand why so many people in America today are so quick to say that torture is ok. It would not be ok if you or someone you loved was taken off the street corner and flown to some secret location would it? Without evidence other than what?

And it goes much deeper than just that, I'm sure you are aware. We have everyday people out trying to stop terrorists now. So say the wrong thing at Starbucks (like perhaps 'have you ever read the communist manifesto') and someone with their cell phone is on the tips network in minutes. It is the Red Scare all over again and now people are starting to use their access to some of this information for political advantage.

How do I know that? I must be an insider. America is in very deep trouble, not simply from oil, not simply from the hurricane that is going to detroy another US city later this year, not simply from the fact that the Lakers are going to win the NBA championship again, we are a nation without a moral center that also happens to be wielding enough military/industrial power to burn the modern world to the ground. It is only a matter of time before a truly immoral cadre gets their hand on the reigns.

And now that we are determined to put everyone who dares question us on a watch list we are just a few short steps away from gestapo land. I have no doubt that there are stasi type operations going on in this country and some of them are continuing even after the officals have said it should end. You got soccer mom sally and her cell phone buddies tailing people through the shopping mall. It's out of control and only a laying bare of the whole thing will start to get people's attention.

here are a list of some of the things I know (don't ask how you might be a rendition candidate if you knew.)

-first responders were recruited as early as 2002 to casually spy on you when they came to do fire inspections and other such things
-TIPS did not go away it just changed shape and started linking up with neighborhood watch groups and the so called infrastructure watch groups
-The FBI has been able to use your cell phone as a bug for at least four years and they do so regulary without a warrant
-The FBI is currently trying to expand their citizen assets under direction of the CIA (now there is a place to look for advice)
-Most electronic communications in the country (upwards of 70%) are captured by the NSA

I mean let's face it we are pretty much there right now when it comes to prison planet. You go over to the UK and there is literally a camera on every corner. How scared are we that we need to do these things? Or is it just that 9/11 gave us an excuse to do what we always wanted to do, to unleash the beast within?

All I know is that when a nation looses it's moral compass decline is not far behind. It may take a century, it may take 100 seconds, I don't know. I just know it is coming. Everyone in my family knows and has believed for decades that the government is filled with crooks and liars. They shine it on because they have jobs and food and get a vacation once in a while.

Anyways, I guess we could turn out to be like the Chinese people. They have been oppressed in one form or another by emperors since time immemorial and they appear to like it that way. Someone I knew from China told me that the opinion of alot of everyday Chinese is that as long as life itself continues as it did who cares who rules. I think alot of Americans probably feel the same way. We still have jobs, half of our retirement moneys, only a $1000 copay on medical expenses (unless it is catastrophic then you will get dropped.) We have 156 channels and the house is paid off.

There are days I ask myself why I did not cross the border into Canada years ago when I had the chance. I could be crunching data in Stockholm right now.

So I guess if you really want to have some type of hall of flames type discussion I'll read your posts. Don't expect me to get too worked up about it though. I know I took the first jab, but you are sporting a USSA flag and then saying torture is needed. If I read that wrong, my apologies.

VdM

[Voice_du_More]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'Y')our the one asking me to re-enlist.. My desire is irrelevant. Have you always known you were a bottom?

[jasonraymondson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', '
')
So I guess if you really want to have some type of hall of flames type discussion I'll read your posts. Don't expect me to get too worked up about it though. I know I took the first jab, but you are sporting a USSA flag and then saying torture is needed. If I read that wrong, my apologies.

VdM

[Jotapay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'O')bama promised the people in the CIA who conducted the torture sessions that he would shield them from being prosecuted.

Obama pledges to protect the CIA torturers

Obama is responsible for covering up the identities of the CIA torturers and protecting them from prosecution. Under international law, anyone who is involved with torture, including government officials who protect the torturers, as Obama is doing, are complicit in the crime of torture.

[Plantagenet]

Waterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it.

[Jotapay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')aterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jotapay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')aterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it.

[Jotapay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'H')ow about you, Jotapay?.

1. Were you vocally opposed to administration actions when it was Bush who was implementing torture policies?
2. Do you condemn Obama for protecting the CIA torturers from prosecution?

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Voice_du_More', 'S')adistic threats and innuendo are far below a person of your intelligence. USSA is an odd thing to say because Stalin was by no means a socialist. He was a brutal dictator no matter what color of uniform he wore. He was every bit as evil as Adolf Hitler. Far right fascism and far left socialism are just names people try to paste over tyranny, nothing more.

America is in just as much danger from the radical nationalism that prevailed under Bush as from the potentially Big Brother type social control we are likely to see under Obama. It's all heading in the same direction.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')aterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it.

[Sixstrings]

Just so I have this straight.. if you sell somebody some weed in this country, you can do twenty years hard time. Torture some people to death gets you the Medal of Freedom. That about right?

[rangerone314]

Why is anyone aghast or astonished at recent events, like immorality is something new? People are always immoral hypocrites.

Compare torturing people to death in the 21st century to Native American genocide in the 19th century. How about seizing vast territories from Mexico, or taking over Hawaii from the natives?

How about the "Civil" War? Burning non-combatants homes to the grounds, buying essentially draft deferments, torching Atlanta to the ground? So much for freedom and self-determination. Northerners objected to Southern abuse of blacks as long as the blacks stayed in the South (convenient) but didn't do much about ghettos.

How about United Fruit Company's adventures in Latin America? Or the fact that most of those countries were essentially ruled from our embassies?

We're hardly unique in the world; Russia, China, France, Germany, England, etc you are either a victim or an abuser. Humans are a savage and self-concerned species, it has been this way for countless thousands of years, and it will be this way until humanity dies out with the whimper of peak oil.

What makes us ALMOST unique is the extent that we don't usually want to get our own hands dirty. Its easier to have corrupt Arab, East European or Iranian gov torture people. Most American's like their meat under plastic wrap at the grocery store but they don't have the balls to kill a chicken themselves. Example my parents scoffing at idea of me raising chickens and killing some of them for food. I told them at least I have the moral courage to do the dirty work for myself.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')aterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it.

[Plantagenet]

There is a federal statute against torture in general: Here is a discussion of it from a recent Eric Holder DOJ brief:

[T]orture is defined as “an extreme form of cruel and inhuman treatment and does not include lesser forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. . . . ” 8 C.F.R. § 1208.18(a)(2). Moreover, as has been explained by the Third Circuit, CAT requires “a showing of specific intent before the Court can make a finding that a petitioner will be tortured.” Pierre v. Attorney General, 528 F.3d 180, 189 (3d Cir. 2008) (en banc); see 8 C.F.R. § 1208.18(a)(5) (requiring that the act “be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering”); Auguste v. Ridge, 395 F.3d 123, 139 (3d Cir. 2005) (“This is a ‘specific intent’ requirement and not a ‘general intent’ requirement” [citations omitted.] An applicant for CAT protection therefore must establish that “his prospective torturer will have the motive or purpose” to torture him. Pierre, 528 F.3d at 189; Auguste, 395 F.3d at 153-54 (“The mere fact that the Haitian authorities have knowledge that severe pain and suffering may result by placing detainees in these conditions does not support a finding that the Haitian authorities intend to inflict severe pain and suffering. The difference goes to the heart of the distinction between general and specific intent.”)

------------

Waterboarding doesn't seem to be "extreme" enough to fit the definition of torture under the federal torture law.....thats why no one is ever arrested for waterboarding even though people are doing it in public squares and posting their videos on YouTube all the time. However, if someone "drilled" someone else's eyeball in public, as ranger suggested above, I'll bet that would be torture under the federal statute as well as assault and a host of other crimes, and the police would quickly stop it.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')aterboarding is not currently a crime in the U.S. The US Congress tried to pass a law to outlaw it a few years ago but stopped out of fear that Bush would veto it.

Now that Obama is President, it is time for the Congress to pass a law outlawing waterboarding to see if Obama will actually sign it.