[Carlhole]

Now the mainstream media, in unison everywhere, preach that all Americans were somehow asleep-at-the-wheel during the Bush years, a blithe ignorance caused by the post-911 trauma. In this climate of fear, the media, in unison thay claim, did not ask the right questions searchingly.

What controlled bullshit! How can this be anything but another puppet show for everyone. The media was complicit in any wrong-doing. Someone should bring THAT up on Hardball.

The fact of the matter is, the major media knew about these things during that time. They knew all along of dissent peace groups who have been suspicious and critical of everything that has happened since 2001. The media chooses which subjects to steadfastly avoid talking about; or they emphasize other subjects ad nauseum if it suits them. Just ask Britney Spears or maybe someone in the peak oil or 911 Truth movements.

[Sixstrings]

When I see talking heads on TV make arguments to the effect that "torture is OK if it works," I'm left wondering just what country I live in.

I very rarely watch Fox, but stumble across it now and then. To his credit, the former Judge they have on there (Napolitano?) points out over and over again that torture is ILLEGAL. It's illegal under US law, the Army codes, the Geneva Convention, and international law. It's flat out illegal all-around.

We're Americans, we're supposed to be the good guys. Do we really need to be held accountable under the law by an international body? I sure don't want to see that, and our country is still dominant enough so that I think it won't happen. But really, we've just lost all credibility.

[OutOfGas]

What the US did would have to be classified as PC torture.

The bleeding heart whiners make me puke.

The realeases are pure politics. Because S is about to HTF Obama still needs to blame Bush.

In the Arab world waterboarding consisted of being hung by the feet with wire and being dunked into raw sewage until you passed out. The procedure was repeated as necessary. You also probably had an electrode up your butt. delivering a near fatal shock.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OutOfGas', '
')The bleeding heart whiners make me puke.

[Fishman]

Ludi
Excellent point, Paul and Jesus did give certain authority to the state however. That is certainly another debate.

Sixstring, I have to assume you never pick up a history book. We firebombed Dresdin in WW2, we nuked two cities. Terrible events that taken by themselves are war crimes. But in war you will always approach the brutality of your enemy. We did not gas 6 million jews, we did not perform biological warfare on China.
We had just been attacked on our homeland by an almost invisible enemy, attacking civilians, with thousands killed. In that scenario, yes we acted in less than an ideal manner, we will do it again, in a second, by any president, with amazing restraint compared to our enemies. Its not shangra la, its war.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'L')udi
Excellent point, Paul and Jesus did give certain authority to the state however. That is certainly another debate.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')
Would Jesus approve of state-sponsored torture simply because it is state-sponsored, though? Really? Would he approve of the tortures of the Inquisition, for instance, or the way the Spanish treated the natives in the Americas? Would he approve of the Nazis gassing the Jews, etc?

[Cid_Yama]

Nice tirade Fishface, and I'm sure the Gestapo would have been happy to accept your application.

But, Obama has been forced back on his heels by the Attorney General who has refused to take the fall by not investigating and prosecuting in accordance with and mandated by law.

The Bush Administration(and apparently supported by many Republicans) might engage in Torture, but Americans do not.

After the last week it is certain that an independent prosecutor will be appointed and those who engaged in and ordered/approved the use of torture will indeed be prosecuted.

The Bush Administration is going down. We may hand them over to the World Court.

This summer will no doubt be dominated by televised hearings, bipartisan or not. I find it hard to believe many Republicans went along with this and most must be just as appalled.

Americans do not torture. No matter what. It is an integral part of who we are as a people.

The fact that the Bush Administration created an atmosphere where certain individuals, such as yourself, feels it is ok, shows how far the Republicans strayed from what makes America America.

You Nazi's can stuff it up your angus.

America will never allow those like you to succeed. We sacrificed an enormous number of American lives to prevent a world like you are promoting, during WWII.

We will not sacrifice our principles now. It would violate every one of those sacrificed lives.

[Livewire713]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'N')ow the mainstream media, in unison everywhere, preach that all Americans were somehow asleep-at-the-wheel during the Bush years, a blithe ignorance caused by the post-911 trauma. In this climate of fear, the media, in unison thay claim, did not ask the right questions searchingly.

What controlled bullshit! How can this be anything but another puppet show for everyone. The media was complicit in any wrong-doing. Someone should bring THAT up on Hardball.

The fact of the matter is, the major media knew about these things during that time. They knew all along of dissent peace groups who have been suspicious and critical of everything that has happened since 2001. The media chooses which subjects to steadfastly avoid talking about; or they emphasize other subjects ad nauseum if it suits them. Just ask Britney Spears or maybe someone in the peak oil or 911 Truth movements.

[Tyler_JC]

The classic example is the situation of the little girl trapped in a box underground with a limited supply of air and the man who buried her sitting in a police station. What should be done to the suspect to find the location of the child in order to save her life?

My answer is to bring out the blow torch and pliers.

If you have a different answer, I will do everything in my power to stop you from being the one making those kinds of decisions.

The world is far too dangerous of a place to allow our liberal sensitivities to get in the way of saving lives.

I would much rather err on the side of torturing a few innocents than allowing a few Oklahoma City Bombings.

Again, you can disagree with me. You can put universal human rights ahead of everything else... Just make sure you're prepared to live with the consequences.

[Livewire713]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'T')he classic example is the situation of the little girl trapped in a box underground with a limited supply of air and the man who buried her sitting in a police station. What should be done to the suspect to find the location of the child in order to save her life?

My answer is to bring out the blow torch and pliers.

If you have a different answer, I will do everything in my power to stop you from being the one making those kinds of decisions.

The world is far too dangerous of a place to allow our liberal sensitivities to get in the way of saving lives.

I would much rather err on the side of torturing a few innocents than allowing a few Oklahoma City Bombings.

Again, you can disagree with me. You can put universal human rights ahead of everything else... Just make sure you're prepared to live with the consequences.

[Carlhole]

The way I understand it, both political parties now recognize that the US engaged in torture; the law specifies a course of action. Its abhorrent to many political constituents on both sides not to simply let criminals go free if it can be proven that they did indeed break the law.

The parties are rowing over whether to investigate and prosecute or let it slide because there are too many other priorities. If the prevailing winds are towards non-prosecution, the Left will never let Obama live it down and he would probably become a Gerald Ford ( who pardoned Nixon).

If Obama relents and appoints a Special Prosecutor, the scandal grows to bigger than Watergate. The Left wants to go after Bush et al; the Right wants to blow it off; the Middle wants Obama to concentrate on the economy. But the law is so clear and the violations so distinct that the Left's objections that war criminals have gotten off scot free will loud and long, raising the question, "Is America a country of laws or not?"

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')You can put universal human rights ahead of everything else...

[Cid_Yama]

Respect for Human Rights is THE core principle by which most Americans identify themselves. That's what makes us the good guys. Made us the good guys.

The Bush Administration has now tarnished our soul.

This just makes me sick. Even more so, that there are some Americans out there who do not grasp this.

Go rent yourself some Jimmy Stewart movies to find out what America is supposed to mean.

Our country's soul is at stake.

[3aidlillahi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y answer is to bring out the blow torch and pliers.

If you have a different answer, I will do everything in my power to stop you from being the one making those kinds of decisions.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'T')he classic example is the situation of the little girl trapped in a box underground with a limited supply of air and the man who buried her sitting in a police station. What should be done to the suspect to find the location of the child in order to save her life?

My answer is to bring out the blow torch and pliers.

If you have a different answer, I will do everything in my power to stop you from being the one making those kinds of decisions.

The world is far too dangerous of a place to allow our liberal sensitivities to get in the way of saving lives.

I would much rather err on the side of torturing a few innocents than allowing a few Oklahoma City Bombings.

Again, you can disagree with me. You can put universal human rights ahead of everything else... Just make sure you're prepared to live with the consequences.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')
And are you willing to live with the consequences of living in a world where the police bring out the blowtorch and pliers every time they believe that some one is up to some thing that puts lives at stake?

How many people have wrongly been sent to death row?

In a system like that how many people would wrongly be treated to the blow torch and pliers?

[bluekachina]

Thing is, Americans do not have control over how they are viewed from the outside.

Over the last 8 years, from out here, it has been looking like Homeland, Homeland, uber alles.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bluekachina', '
')The rest of the world is watching and will take action

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')vercrowding in U.K. hospital emergency rooms has become a "humanitarian crisis," the British Red Cross has said, urging the government to spend more on social care for the sick and elderly.

The charity said it has dispatched volunteers in several areas of the country to help patients go home and free up hospital beds. It claims cuts to social-care funding by the Conservative government mean some patients can't be discharged because there is no support available, putting pressure on hospitals.

"We've seen people sent home without clothes, some suffer falls and are not found for days, while others are not washed because there is no carer there to help them," said British Red Cross chief executive Mike Adamson.

"If people don't receive the care they need and deserve, they will simply end up returning to A&E (accident and emergency), and the cycle begins again."

Government supporters and health service managers accused the Red Cross of exaggerating the scale of the problem.

The often overstretched National Health Service generally sees a surge in demand during the cold winter months, and NHS England, which manages care in England, said Saturday that "plans remain in place to deal with additional demands."

The state-funded service, which provides free care to all Britons, is a source of national pride. It is also a political punching bag, with politicians, patients and health care workers trading allegations of underfunding and mismanagement.