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"Work for all" Why ?

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby bodigami » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 02:14:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Work for all" Why?


"food for all" why? :P
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby ForlornHope » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 10:00:19

OP, We are not slaves, we are serfs. Slaves don't get paid. Serfs get paid, and even get to spend their money on things like Ipods and Hummers, but at the end of the day they're still serfs...
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 12:20:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ForlornHope', 'O')P, We are not slaves, we are serfs. Slaves don't get paid. Serfs get paid, and even get to spend their money on things like Ipods and Hummers, but at the end of the day they're still serfs...
Forlorn Hope

Disagree. It's called 'wage slavery' for good reason:

“Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and all chattel slavery abolished. This I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. The great debt that the capitalists will see to it is made out of the war, must be used as a means to control the volume of money. To accomplish this the bonds must be used as a banking basis. We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury to make this recommendation to Congress. It will not do to allow the Greenback, as it is called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that. But we can control the bonds and through them the bank issues.” ~ The Hazard Circular of 1862

The ownership class developed wage work as a means of transferring the responsibility of the care and feeding of slaves from the slaveholders to the slaves themselves while creating the illusion that the slaves were now 'free' to make their own way. The only 'freedom' we have that didn't exist then is the 'freedom' to choose which masters we work for. And make no mistake, you are not working for yourself, especially if you carry any kind of debt.
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby ForlornHope » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 12:56:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ForlornHope', 'O')P, We are not slaves, we are serfs. Slaves don't get paid. Serfs get paid, and even get to spend their money on things like Ipods and Hummers, but at the end of the day they're still serfs...
Forlorn Hope

Disagree. It's called 'wage slavery' for good reason:

“Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and all chattel slavery abolished. This I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. The great debt that the capitalists will see to it is made out of the war, must be used as a means to control the volume of money. To accomplish this the bonds must be used as a banking basis. We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury to make thirecommendation to Congress. It will not do to allow the Greenback, as it is called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that. But we can control the bonds and through them the bank issues.” ~ The Hazard Circular of 1862

The ownership class developed wage work as a means of transferring the responsibility of the care and feeding of slaves from the slaveholders to the slaves themselves while creating the illusion that the slaves were now 'free' to make their own way. The only 'freedom' we have that didn't exist then is the 'freedom' to choose which masters we work for. And make no mistake, you are not working for yourself, especially if you carry any kind of debt.


Point well taken, but in the end it works out to be generally the same thing.
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby paimei01 » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 14:35:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bodinagamin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Work for all" Why?


"food for all" why? :P

"Food for all" is a good slogan. Do you think we need "work for all" for it to happen ? Even without modern machines, there is no need for all to work for food. With modern machines we could live in the system I talked about.
http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-5.php
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ther studies worldwide, as well as common sense, suggest that the !Kung were not exceptional. In more lush areas life was probably even easier. Moreover, much of the "work" spent on these twenty hours of subsistence activities was by no means strenuous or burdensome. Most of the men's subsistence hours were spent hunting, something we do for recreation today, while gathering work was occasion for banter and frequent breaks.
Primitive small-scale agriculturalists enjoyed a similar unhurried pace of life. Consider Helena Norberg-Hodge's description of pre-modern Ladakh, a region in the Indian portion of the Tibetan Plateau.iii Despite a growing season only four months long, Ladakh enjoyed regular food surpluses, long and frequent festivals and celebrations, and ample leisure time (especially in winter when there was little field work to do). This, despite the harsh climate and the (proportionately) enormous population of non-working Buddhist monks in that country's numerous monasteries! More powerfully than any statistic, Norberg-Hodge's video documentary Ancient Futures conveys a sense of the leisurely pace of life there: villagers chat or sing as they work, taking plenty of long breaks even at the busiest time of the year. As the narrator says, "work and leisure are one.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:15:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '
')"Food for all" is a good slogan. Do you think we need "work for all" for it to happen ? Even without modern machines, there is no need for all to work for food.



People didn't used to need to "work" for food, they could just go gather it. Usually took about 4 hours a day, then relax, make art, etc. :)



'The Question (ID Number 449)...

In My Ishmael, are you proposing "unlocking" the food, and if so, what do you see the economical ramifications of this to be?
...and the response:

Readers often tend to mistake observations for recommendations. I'm not doing anything like "proposing 'unlocking' the food" in MY ISHMAEL any more than I'm proposing to put a cap on food production in THE STORY OF B.
Locking up the food has had (and continues to have) tremendous negative consequences on our lives. If people don't mind putting up with those consequences, then they'll never wonder how they might go about unlocking the food. Similarly, unlimited food production is the fuel that is driving our catastrophic population explosion--but if people don't mind the prospect of human extinction, then they'll never wonder how they might go about ending that unlimited production.

I see myself as being like the Surgeon General who, in 1964 published the first definitive report linking smoking to cancer. He didn't say, "You must stop smoking," he just said, "Smoking puts you at tremendous risk." Like the Surgeon General, I don't make proposals, I just make connections. What people choose to do with those connections is up to them. - Daniel Quinn'

http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/Qand ... Record=449
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:37:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')I see myself as being like the Surgeon General who, in 1964 published the first definitive report linking smoking to cancer. He didn't say, "You must stop smoking," he just said, "Smoking puts you at tremendous risk." Like the Surgeon General, I don't make proposals, I just make connections. What people choose to do with those connections is up to them. - Daniel Quinn'

http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/Qand ... Record=449


To carry the analogy further, we're now kind of like Yul Brynner making his PSAs against smoking when he was days away from dying of lung cancer.
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:43:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')To carry the analogy further, we're now kind of like Yul Brynner making his PSAs against smoking when he was days away from dying of lung cancer.


And people wonder why Daniel Quinn seems grumpy. :cry:
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby bodigami » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 22:51:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bodinagamin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Work for all" Why?


"food for all" why? :P

"Food for all" is a good slogan. Do you think we need "work for all" for it to happen ? Even without modern machines, there is no need for all to work for food. With modern machines we could live in the system I talked about.
http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-5.php
(...)


i think you are underestimating the current state of overshoot.
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 03:27:10

Right now there is no shortage of food yet. You want to say that if people stop all the useless work of today, concentrate on agriculture, and other important stuff like healing the planet, we will not have enough food ?
And the planet would just heal itself if we allow it. In the society I described the environmental damage would be at 10% of today. No money = no people taking more than they need from nature. What to do with it ? No useless work to produce garbage after 6 months of "use" just to have a job, is also good for nature.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: "Work for all" Why ?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 14:07:45

There's plenty of food, but the food is locked up. :( The system is set up so you have to work to pay for it. We need to set up a different system, like the Gift Economy.
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