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Canary: Censorship of PO

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 11 Apr 2009, 22:57:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ell say what you want about Savinar, he's still done a good job of getting people to reflect on the issue of epochal change of all kinds; climatic, energy, economic, etc... So--be nice.


In 2004, on this site, Matt used an example of how the end was closing in around us because of basic social disintergration, the example being the theft of diesel from farmers in California.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/22/us/california-thieves-prey-on-farms-diesel-fuel.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

So, 5 years later, do you think Matt, using common examples of various and sundry thievery in the news, a practice which he continues to this day, and the practice of which apparently recently caused him to erase 2/3's of his website out of some sort of irrational fear, is telling us about "epochal change", or just referencing stories in the news so that his readers will continue reading, AND BUYING, stuff from his site?

If Matt actually BELIEVED in the epochal change you reference, do you think he would be afraid of being sued by the MSM, when there are more important things to worry about? ( zombies, nukes, fedghetto's, starvation, gingivitis ) In 5 years since he became peak aware, and critical of modern urban areas, don't you think he would have LEFT his by now? If his investing advice, again referenced at this site by a comment ( and now I'm paraphrasing ) "if I had $1000 to invest in silver I could buy my doomstead by now" had been worth anything, don't you think he WOULD have, if he believed in what he advocates?

Sorry...until someone can show me how scaring people into a specific type of consumerism ( buy MY stuff, not THEIR stuff ) which is financially beneficial to the scarer, and detrimental to the financial health of the scaree, has more societal relevance than personal financial relevance, I just don't see this as "epochal change" or getting people to do more than "reflect" with their wallets in a specific, and targeted, direction.


Doing something you believe in and making money at it, aren't mutually exclusive. As far as following advice detrimental to a person's financial health, you could have done a lot worse than follwowing Savinar. Sure you may have bought yourself and all your friends solar ovens, beans, rice, water purifiers, etc..etc..but you also would have gotten out of debt, to the best of your ability, and downsized to something you could easily afford. If you bought a little place in the country, as a doomstead, would that have been a really bad idea?

I agree that scaring people silly, doesn't seem like the best route to take, but to be fair, it might turn out to be. At this point, we really don't know, do we?

I can see why you're irked and don't mean to be too critical of you either. Matt has not only been humbled but humiliated. He deserves some of the criticism, but not all of it. I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby shortonsense » Sat 11 Apr 2009, 23:48:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Doing something you believe in and making money at it, aren't mutually exclusive.


Quite true.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
') As far as following advice detrimental to a person's financial health, you could have done a lot worse than follwowing Savinar. Sure you may have bought yourself and all your friends solar ovens, beans, rice, water purifiers, etc..etc..but you also would have gotten out of debt, to the best of your ability, and downsized to something you could easily afford. If you bought a little place in the country, as a doomstead, would that have been a really bad idea?


If you had purchased a place when he recommended it, you most likely would have lost some 5-30%, based on current estimates of median property loss value since 04/05?

I don't disagree that having a doomstead is a good idea ( I grew up near all sorts of fishing camps along the banks of the Allegheny, nothing wrong with a fishing doomstead ), I just wonder why, 5 years in now, he hasn't done it himself, what with "you could have done alot worse" than listening to him?

Lets consider other issues. In the 5 years or so since he became peak aware, he, and or his disciples, could have gotten a degree in bio engineering. Do you think these years would have been better invested in collecting that sort of science degree, or trying to become Amish?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threadbear', '
')I agree that scaring people silly, doesn't seem like the best route to take, but to be fair, it might turn out to be. At this point, we really don't know, do we?


We know some things. We've had 2 peak oils since Matt became peak aware, and the price crash in crude was certainly not the most expected result. The nuke war he has always worried about doesn't look any closer now than it did then. Tractors certainly still use diesel. Transitions, plans and actual events to change the means of transport power is continuing, advocated by the likes of Boone Pickens, and Simmons. No Fedghetto's, no martial law allowing Bush to stay in power, no shortages of much of anything, a pretty decent recession clobbering my construction and home lending friends, but that can't be considered a surprise by anyone who was watching Roubini's website back in 2006.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Threadbear', '
')
I can see why you're irked and don't mean to be too critical of you either. Matt has not only been humbled but humiliated. He deserves some of the criticism, but not all of it. I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt.


I see a different sequence unfolding. His attempts to sell the joint last winter struck me as reasonable, and a way to distance himself from the albatross around his neck prior to getting on with his life, now that this interlude with doom is over.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby big goat » Sun 12 Apr 2009, 00:52:01

I would tend to agree that Matt has done a good job getting people to reflect on the tenuous nature of our civilization, and pointing out trends that dont look promising. I have no problem with him voicing his opinions, which are often excellent.

His forum, and business practices leave a whole lot to be desired in my opinion. He has dished an awful lot of humiliation out on his forum, and allowed and encouraged others to do the same, so I see it as appropo that said same has come back to haunt him.

What to me is theft, that being allowing reproduction of entire articles without permission and often without attribution as a routine matter is inexcuseable.

By allowing the use of thousands of others work in a manner that is highly unethical, and certainly beyond fair use for ones own commercial benefit shows a consistent pattern of what can be argueably be defined as an ongoing criminal enterprise. Theft for profit. Its a simple concept.

I feel that, in some ways, he has been done a favor here. His eyes certainly must have been opened. With such a fundamentally flawed business model it was only a matter of time. A setup, what looks to be a near perfect spoof, resulting in the measures taken is certainly far less extreme than other possible consequences.

One thing is quite certain, and that is this would have never happened had he apologised for his treatment of a certain individual, and cleaned up his forum in a responsible manner. Both he and at least two moderators were warned, repeatedly. I am unsure if Mr Savinar is even aware of the actions of his moderators, which I believe a reasonable person would consider reprehensible. But of course the ultimate responsibility is his.

There are still hundreds, if not thousands of cases of copyright violation posted on his forum, despite the recent purge. I cannot see any positive future for his site til it is cleaned up. I am reasonably certain that a simple public apology would give him the opportunity to voluntarily clean his forum in a coherent manner. I also have reason to believe that his continued display of copyrighted material will yield increasing difficulties.

It could be said that he has done pissed off the wrong person, and a simple public apology, coupled with a sincere effort to remove all offending material is all that is required to end his difficulties.

So easy, but apparently so hard.

I personally and sincerely hope that Matt takes the hint I am offering and reaches out to those that he has offended, offers a sincere apology to those upon whom he has transgressed, and cleans up his forum to reflect good moral charactor. I feel certain that he has this in him. I would very much prefer to see his continued news gathering and opinion continued. It would be to the benefit of us all.

But it is of course his choice.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 12 Apr 2009, 10:14:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Surely you jest? The Bioengineering scam is collapsing as we speak. The investment dollars are drying up and the products non-existent. Bioengineering has been about has useful for mankind as Saturian Mind-Batteries or Gay Catholic Weddings Want to buy a fish/strawberry that glows in the dark? :razz:


I do not use the concept of a degree in bio-engineering as an analog for anything related to various business ventures or a criticism or comment on venture capitalism. I use it as the example of an interesting college degree which I would bet is more long term beneficial to its holder than having spent the same amount of time learning Matts 5 Secrets To Becoming Amish.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PStarr', '
')I challenge you ShortonBrains to name one pharmaceutical product manufactured with bioenginneered tools or lifeforms that has made a significant difference to the overall health and well-being of the American public. Just one.

Oh. And citric acid. Whoop!


My comment was not related to the benefits to society from bio engineering, only the ability of a person holding a degree in such a thing to do better financially in our post peak world than an Amish wanna be.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 12 Apr 2009, 10:36:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big goat', 'I') would tend to agree that Matt has done a good job getting people to reflect on the tenuous nature of our civilization, and pointing out trends that dont look promising. I have no problem with him voicing his opinions, which are often excellent.


I have no problem with Matts opinion on how nuclear war is going to be a natural consequence of peak oil in 2000 ( lets not forget, Matt is ALWAYS seeing peak oil, and has been since he wrote his "book" ), but it strikes me as fear mongering more than anything else.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big goat', '
')By allowing the use of thousands of others work in a manner that is highly unethical, and certainly beyond fair use for ones own commercial benefit shows a consistent pattern of what can be argueably be defined as an ongoing criminal enterprise. Theft for profit. Its a simple concept.


I don't know if Matts fear of the consequences of his actions means that he actually is scared that he has allowed just such an enterprise to happen or not. It certainly looks suspicious, such a wild overreaction compared to how everyone else is interpreting the same news. Has anyone noticed this site, TOD, Enery Bulletin, erasing most of their website? I wonder if this qualifies as a "I doth suspect he protest too much".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('old goat', '
')One thing is quite certain, and that is this would have never happened had he apologised for his treatment of a certain individual, and cleaned up his forum in a responsible manner. Both he and at least two moderators were warned, repeatedly. I am unsure if Mr Savinar is even aware of the actions of his moderators, which I believe a reasonable person would consider reprehensible. But of course the ultimate responsibility is his.


About the only thing Matt shows up to comment on nowadays are to threaten people like me for noticing the survivalacres dustup. You keep bringing it up and he'll be threatening you with his massive manhood lawyerhood next. :-D Consider yourself warned, he will tell you he is a lawyer and expect you to be scared.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big goat', '
')It could be said that he has done pissed off the wrong person, and a simple public apology, coupled with a sincere effort to remove all offending material is all that is required to end his difficulties.


Only if your theory that this is all a hoax is true. I will wait a bit longer and see how all the other PO sites react, if they don't react in a similar way, it will be more reasonable to assume that this was an overreaction along the lines of Mr Savinars displays of temper in public when things don't go his way, or his tantrums which have been commented on by others.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 12 Apr 2009, 12:54:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'S')hortonebrains, you are just one more in a long list of whiners who show up here at PO complaining that 'doomers are mean' or 'doomers are Amish' or some other pointless personality slight. You are in denial. It hurts to see you suffer.


Whiners? Ah...no? My "Doomers = Amish" crack is pretty particular to LATOC, not here, so please try not to generalize a specific criticism into any stereotypical tendencies you might naturally trend towards.

As far as being in denial, if you mean about peak oil, well, I guess all I can say is we've been through 2 of them recently...and are still waiting...and waiting......for....whatever?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PStarr', '
')People like you never join in the substantial discussions but just sit on the periphery taking pot shots at the doers like Matt. He is a person who has spent his time, money, prestige working to understand what will perhaps be the most important watershed historical moment in history--that time when our primary energy source--the basis for economic growth and social cohesion, and the engine that drives technological progress--begins its relentless decline.


I've read Matts book. I've listened to his radio bits. I've read his posts here, at his place, and at survival acres and even at JD's joint. I guess I don't attach much significance to his "contribution", but I could be biased towards what I would consider actual scientific contributions and evidence rather than the social commentator side of the PO spectrum.

So...if you want to assign a high value to his social commentary over the years...okay...its a free country. Now, claiming he has any "prestige" to spend on this topic...THAT might be way over the top.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PStarr', '
')
I welcome folks like you. You are a source of great entertainment and training. Thanks for the challenge :) See ya in the ring :twisted: You know where. ha ha ha.


This is maybe some Matrix reference or something of what children nowadays pretend is "culture", perhaps, because I certainly don't understand the reference at all.
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Re: Censorship of PO

Unread postby shortonsense » Sun 12 Apr 2009, 13:52:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')wo peaks? Care to elaborate?


The one which appeared to have been declared in 2005, and then the other one which was apparently declared in 2008.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PStarr', '
')So you don't consider Simmon's work 'scientific?' Care to elaborate? Problem with his methods or conclusions?:


According to Jarrell, just plain inexperience in the field in question, leading to bad conclusions. I will accept his opinion as the only actual expert referenced so far as conclusive, until you can find someone to refute him anyway.

So Simmons wrote a book, there isn't much scientific about that. Matt wrote one too. So could you or I, proclaiming how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and in no case would any of this be confused with science of any sort.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PStarr', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '
')This is maybe some Matrix reference or something of what children nowadays pretend is "culture", perhaps, because I certainly don't understand the reference at all.
The other thread. Where you flunked?


Flunked what? Noticing that Ace can't address Jarrell's professional expertise and commentary any better than you can?

On topic, this isn't about Jarrell's expertise or Simmons lack thereof, its about Matt erasing a majority of his website out of some sort of irrational fear or in reaction to a hoax from someone else. You didn't post over there as well and do this confusion between CERA and CERI routine and ask him to get rid of it for you, and when he did, he pulled a boo-boo and blasted 2/3's of the site instead, what with his outstanding computer skills and all now, did you? :-D
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