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"We need leaders"

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 01:32:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('POAlex', '[')b]"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." (Psalm 118:8)


I know Jesus could turn water into wine. Can he make it into oil too?
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sat 21 Feb 2009, 06:51:22

Real men do not need leaders, they lead by example. Unfortunately most people are sheep.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby HeckuvaJob » Sat 21 Feb 2009, 09:01:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'U')nfortunately most people are sheep.


I totally agree with ewe!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', 'W')hat we need is free market capitalism.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby phaster » Sun 05 Apr 2009, 23:09:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o often I see on here people saying "we need leaders to do such and such" to solve our problems and by "leaders" they seem to mean "the government." Why do people think we need the government to do virtually everything to change our society/solve our problems, and, perhaps more importantly, why do people believe the government will ever be interested in changing the status quo in a way which benefits the mass of people?

Just curious about opinions on this popular need for "leaders."



IMHO what is sadly lacking is not "leaders" but rather a general population that lacks basic critical analytical skills! Too often judgements are made because of personal bias based on pride, incomplete evidence and a general lack of understanding of a problem!
truth is,...

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Crazy_Dad » Mon 06 Apr 2009, 11:13:21

Unfortunately there are no leaders of note in the world today.
Just look at the UN inability to make a decision on NK.

Kevin Rudd seems to say all the right things as does Obama.
The whole stimu-pak is for the rich to get richer. Draining the last quart of blood from the corpse of the middle class. Spend your stim pak on debt - the liver of the rich who will make you pay for their caviar one way or another.

One person asked me if we should all live like we did in the 18th or 19 century. I say yes. If that is what it takes to make life sustainable on the earth. Because the pricks in charge WILL send us to hell for a GUCCI handbag.

Yes I sound like a pessimist. Sorry. Suck it up - for it is the truth.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 06 Apr 2009, 11:51:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')One person asked me if we should all live like we did in the 18th or 19 century. I say yes. If that is what it takes to make life sustainable on the earth.



The 18th and 19th century way of life was not sustainable - that was a period of enormous colonization and exploitation of Africa and the New World. There aren't the resources available for that way of life anymore. We need to look at other models.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 06 Apr 2009, 13:37:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o often I see on here people saying "we need leaders to do such and such" to solve our problems and by "leaders" they seem to mean "the government." Why do people think we need the government to do virtually everything to change our society/solve our problems, and, perhaps more importantly, why do people believe the government will ever be interested in changing the status quo in a way which benefits the mass of people?

Just curious about opinions on this popular need for "leaders."


Leaders to most people seems to mean a magic genie who can grant your wishes and make the problems go away at no cost.

Politicians try to act this out with deficit spending. Just wait until Aladin's grandchildren get his bill!
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Crazy_Dad » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 10:22:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')One person asked me if we should all live like we did in the 18th or 19 century. I say yes. If that is what it takes to make life sustainable on the earth.



The 18th and 19th century way of life was not sustainable - that was a period of enormous colonization and exploitation of Africa and the New World. There aren't the resources available for that way of life anymore. We need to look at other models.


You are probably right but what can the human organism accept? Change is required on that we agree.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 12:21:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')You are probably right but what can the human organism accept? Change is required on that we agree.



Are you interested in looking at other models? There are many available, not that we should copy them, but we can emulate some aspects of them. There are even aspects of 18th and 19th century Western way of life we might choose to emulate.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Crazy_Dad » Wed 08 Apr 2009, 10:47:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')You are probably right but what can the human organism accept? Change is required on that we agree.



Are you interested in looking at other models? There are many available, not that we should copy them, but we can emulate some aspects of them. There are even aspects of 18th and 19th century Western way of life we might choose to emulate.


I accept that I have neither the political backup or mob backup to change anything. Give me the SAS and I would change my country for the better(IMHO). But maybe I would get it wrong.

The problem seems insurmountable, but I witness our politicians helping out Woodside or BP, and never defending nature as a world entity. How do we not chuck out the baby with the bath water?
I just try and get people thinking along these lines with my posts. My experience at KBR showed me that the company will operate within the confines of law. So law is the problem in one sense.

This all seems circular to me. There is nothing rational about business at all, when it promises to kill the baby it proposes to support.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 08 Apr 2009, 12:03:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')I accept that I have neither the political backup or mob backup to change anything.



Ok, the thing I see different about our way of looking at this is, you say you need political backup or a mob to "change anything." In my way of thinking, we can as individuals change things, by our own actions as models for different systems. For instance, I'm always going on about the Sharing Economy. You don't need political backup or a mob to engage in the Sharing Economy. It would never occur to me in a million years to use "I have neither the political backup or a mob" as an excuse not to try to live the way I want. It would never enter my mind that nothing can change if everyone doesn't change at once.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby Crazy_Dad » Wed 15 Apr 2009, 06:33:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')I accept that I have neither the political backup or mob backup to change anything.



Ok, the thing I see different about our way of looking at this is, you say you need political backup or a mob to "change anything." In my way of thinking, we can as individuals change things, by our own actions as models for different systems. For instance, I'm always going on about the Sharing Economy. You don't need political backup or a mob to engage in the Sharing Economy. It would never occur to me in a million years to use "I have neither the political backup or a mob" as an excuse not to try to live the way I want. It would never enter my mind that nothing can change if everyone doesn't change at once.


Ludi, I think your way of seeing things is 'optimal'. I just don't think us humans are capable of doing the right thing 'as a mob' - not without legislation. Some business people would dump toxic waste directly into the drinking water for a buck. Our society does this in a more general way. Unless the 'mob' or some other vocal group says this is no longer ok, the politicians will never come to the table. Catch 22, kiss your ass - good night mama.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 23:11:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')You are probably right but what can the human organism accept? Change is required on that we agree.



Are you interested in looking at other models? There are many available, not that we should copy them, but we can emulate some aspects of them. There are even aspects of 18th and 19th century Western way of life we might choose to emulate.


I accept that I have neither the political backup or mob backup to change anything. Give me the SAS and I would change my country for the better(IMHO). But maybe I would get it wrong.

The problem seems insurmountable, but I witness our politicians helping out Woodside or BP, and never defending nature as a world entity. How do we not chuck out the baby with the bath water?
I just try and get people thinking along these lines with my posts. My experience at KBR showed me that the company will operate within the confines of law. So law is the problem in one sense.

This all seems circular to me. There is nothing rational about business at all, when it promises to kill the baby it proposes to support.


i think we are past the point of an orderly change of civilization... it will therefore default to a caothic one. after that we can start from scratch... so don't think much of this orderly change, it most probably won't happen that way.
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Re: "We need leaders"

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 23:13:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Crazy_Dad', '
')I accept that I have neither the political backup or mob backup to change anything.



Ok, the thing I see different about our way of looking at this is, you say you need political backup or a mob to "change anything." In my way of thinking, we can as individuals change things, by our own actions as models for different systems. For instance, I'm always going on about the Sharing Economy. You don't need political backup or a mob to engage in the Sharing Economy. It would never occur to me in a million years to use "I have neither the political backup or a mob" as an excuse not to try to live the way I want. It would never enter my mind that nothing can change if everyone doesn't change at once.


...the problem is others. one can change anything one wants in one's small range of action, but further than that one cann't do much. we need simultaneous and effective change... the odds are against it happening.
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