[scarly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('skeptik', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')t's a form of Autism.
Sometimes I think the people running the wold have it.
It's central symptoms are self absorption& fidgeting.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day from Pheba:
I have been doing a bit of research and came up with an interesting bit of info.
Aspberger's is not the same as ADD/ADHD, and should not be included.
There are no defining tests to prove ADD/ADHD even exists.
Aspbergers has been traced to the 3rd chromosome on the human genome.
In the book: "The Diseasing of Our Children" the authors relate the ADD studies done on Amish/Mennonite children. As far as I am concerned that study is a deal breaker.
Parents with a child suffering symptoms of ADD/ADHD are desparate for the condition to be real.
If the child is uncontrollable there is a "real" problem.
Committing a child to years of mind-altering psychotic drugs is not an answer to the problem.
In the book: "The Hyperactivity Hoax", the pediatrician author related a case where a young girl was brought to him exhibiting classic signs of severe ADD. She was restless, hyperactive, could not concentrate, etc.
PET brain scan showed no brain damage. After a battery of tests showed no problem, the Dr. told the mother to take the girl home, and place scotch tape on her rectum. The next morning the tape was loaded with pinworms.
The little girl was not sleeping because her rectum itched all night long. She was loaded with pinworms. When she was properly diagnosed and treated her ADD symptoms went away. When children do not get proper sleep they exhibit hyperactive behavior.
In another case a young boy was diagnosed with ADD. His parents took him to the author for a consult. Subsequent tests showed the problem to be sickle cell anemia, not ADD. If he had been treated for ADD, his sickle cell would have gone undiagnosed.
The above two examples are what bothers me most about the ADD/ADHD labeling. Amateurs; i.e., school nurses, counselors, teachers, psychologists, etc. are attempting to diagnose an illness in a child. Only a pediatrician is truly qualified to diagnose a child with an unknown illness.
As a substitute teacher I saw a lot through the years.
I saw bleary-eyed, underfed, shell shocked children.
The above does not describe the "poor" children. The poor children were receiving free breakfast and lunch. The above describes the well to do children.
With two working parents it is common for children to be left to fend for themselves in some areas. Especially breakfast, and when to go to bed.
I did a lot of polling of my students. My most common questions were:
What did you have for breakfast (25% was usually nothing)
Do you have a television set in your bedroom? (at least 25%)
Did you watch Letterman or Jay Leno last night (usually the same 25%, and this was even true in most kindergarten classes)
I usually spent quite a bit of my paycheck when I subbed kindergarten class.
I always brought boxes of Cheez-It crackers and other snacks to feed the babies. A class of 25 could empty 3 boxes of Cheez-Its in 5 minutes. I am not making any of this up. What kind of moron sends a 5 year old baby to school without breakfast. These children were starving.
You can't teach a hungry child.
Parenting does have quite a bit to do with ADD/ADHD behavior.
Children thrive on ritual and sameness in their lives.
Children need 10 hours of sleep per night. Their little bodies are growing, and when the raw materials for growth are not provided, guess what part of the body gets cheated. Sleep is a raw material just as important as food.
We are a nation of idiots raising a bunch of sick kids.
Pheba.

[WildRose]

I know nothing about Aspergers, so I can't comment except to say kudos to the people who are doing their best with their loved ones who have the syndrome.

I do have some experience with ADHD misdiagnosis, however.

I agree with Pheba and Schmuto and others that way too many kids are diagnosed, or rather labeled, with these types of disorders. Perhaps some of the symptoms are related to too much TV/video-game playing, not enough sleep, diet, etc. As far as parenting goes, and the relationship between parenting and working long hours daily, well, there's a lot of gray area. Some working parents are excellent parents. Some stay-at-home parents are lousy parents. Also, parents can be very good, mediocre or inadequate, as can doctors, lawyers, business managers. I think most parents know what kind of job they're doing with their kids. Personally, I think I've been a pretty good parent but I certainly have had my shortcomings.

I think ADD and ADHD and related disorders are overdiagnosed and the blame can be shared by parents and schools. In the schools, we (I'm speaking about the system, generally) want kids to fit a certain mold. High achievers, kids who don't ask a lot of questions and kids who can sit quietly for several hours straight are good students. Kids who are disinterested, can't sit still and don't accept everything as presented to them generally are not desirable. A child who is 8 years old and looks out the window a lot or has trouble paying attention and can't sit still will almost certainly be investigated for one of the attention deficit disorders.

The year my son was tested (grade 3), eight kids in his class of 22 were tested. My son had a learning disability in the writing area which was not properly diagnosed at that time, but he was diagnosed with borderline intelligence and it was recommended to me that he be transferred to a school for kids with below average intelligence. He also went through extensive testing for ADHD, which, as it ended up, he did not have. I didn't take him out of his school - I knew him well enough to realize that he was certainly smart enough. He could listen to a story I read him and repeat the story back in his own words, or watch a nature show on TV with me and discuss it intelligently. He also showed a very mature understanding of emotional issues at a young age. My son stayed in that school until grade 6, went on to a regular junior high, and is about to complete grade 12 this spring in his high school. He has never been a really high achiever academically, but he's passing his courses, writes great essays and is an all-around likable kid. He's been captain of his basketball team and won two gold medals and we've been told that he plays very intelligently. I sometimes wonder where he would have been now if I had taken the school's advice and transferred him to the other school back in grade 3?

Too many kids are suspected of having hyperactivity disorders. Most of them are healthy, normal kids. They're active. We should be more worried about them if they are not active. Sure, they're more easily distracted in the classroom. Who wouldn't rather be outside chopping wood or hammering something or helping an adult fix a car? Or baking cookies or going on a hike? Teachers who employ more hands-on activities in their classrooms and can make their lessons truly interesting can make a real difference as far as engaging all of their students in learning. Of course, this may be challenging for teachers given the curriculum they're expected to follow, so to be fair it is a systemic problem and not just a teaching problem.

My feeling is that over the next few years, we should start to see the numbers of kids suspected of having these disorders and misdiagnosed with them decrease, perhaps sharply, as more parents become better informed. I think there is beginning to be a better understanding of different types of students and just basically what makes kids tick. There is also more information available now about the long-term effects of the medications many young kids have been on for years, and that should raise a flag for parents and help them decide to seek other coping mechanisms if they truly believe their child has ADD or ADHD or similar disorder. Parents should honestly examine their child's behavior and see how they behave when all of their needs are being met. They may simply need more opportunities to talk more with their parents, have more physical activity every day, or need specific help with a learning disability.

Sorry that I have derailed this discussion about Asperger's - just felt a need to voice my views about ADD, etc.

Carry on!

[Dawn]

My experience with diagnosis for my son was interesting, to say the least. It wasn't suggested to me by a teacher though. I had our oldest son tested for a slew of things starting from age 3. I could tell he was different from the time he was a baby, and it became more apparent the older get got.

He had normal speech, I guess, but he'd go on and on about things like his name... My name is Evan Gabriel, the greatest, strongest, fastest, most powerful super hero in the world. Oh it was longer than that, but you get the picture, right? It was cute. I wouldn't say that he didn't make eye contact, because I would ask him to look at me. Had temper tantrums/meltdowns that sometimes pushed me to the brink of loosing my mind... Seriously, sometimes he'd have scream at the top of his lungs fits, while banging his head on the floor for hours at a time. Sometimes I had to hold him so he wouldn't hurt himself. Finally, he'd calm down and he'd start all over again without being provoked. Many times we couldn't even figure out what caused it in the first place.

When he was in kindergarten he wouldn't participate with the rest of the class. There was a toy measuring tape that he liked and he was content to sit and play with that toy, alone. I was asked by the teacher to come to class and help him to join in learning. He refused and blew up when we took the toy away.

Oh and he was kicked out of 4 Catholic schools. We didn't have better luck with public school either. He threw a fit when he was in the third grade and the school called the police and had him taken to the hospital for observation. There were a couple things that sparked that tantrum... One there were kids that had been picking on him and when he tried to tell the teacher, she ignored him. Second was I just had another baby.

It's been a ride. He was first diagnosed with ADHD, later ADD and now he's considered to be in the autism spectrum. He's not on medication and never has been. He's in regular classes and though he's a year behind in school he will be graduating next year. With age, Evan has learned to cope with his emotions better. Like your son, WildRose, my son hasn't been a high achiever in school, but he can do the work. Evan has an average intelligence of 118, but it's uneven being really high in some areas and below average in others. He plays sports and loves the interaction.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dawn', 'M')y experience with diagnosis for my son was interesting, to say the least. It wasn't suggested to me by a teacher though. I had our oldest son tested for a slew of things starting from age 3. I could tell he was different from the time he was a baby, and it became more apparent the older get got.

He had normal speech, I guess, but he'd go on and on about things like his name... My name is Evan Gabriel, the greatest, strongest, fastest, most powerful super hero in the world. Oh it was longer than that, but you get the picture, right? It was cute. I wouldn't say that he didn't make eye contact, because I would ask him to look at me. Had temper tantrums/meltdowns that sometimes pushed me to the brink of loosing my mind... Seriously, sometimes he'd have scream at the top of his lungs fits, while banging his head on the floor for hours at a time. Sometimes I had to hold him so he wouldn't hurt himself. Finally, he'd calm down and he'd start all over again without being provoked. Many times we couldn't even figure out what caused it in the first place.

When he was in kindergarten he wouldn't participate with the rest of the class. There was a toy measuring tape that he liked and he was content to sit and play with that toy, alone. I was asked by the teacher to come to class and help him to join in learning. He refused and blew up when we took the toy away.

Oh and he was kicked out of 4 Catholic schools. We didn't have better luck with public school either. He threw a fit when he was in the third grade and the school called the police and had him taken to the hospital for observation. There were a couple things that sparked that tantrum... One there were kids that had been picking on him and when he tried to tell the teacher, she ignored him. Second was I just had another baby.

It's been a ride. He was first diagnosed with ADHD, later ADD and now he's considered to be in the autism spectrum. He's not on medication and never has been. He's in regular classes and though he's a year behind in school he will be graduating next year. With age, Evan has learned to cope with his emotions better. Like your son, WildRose, my son hasn't been a high achiever in school, but he can do the work. Evan has an average intelligence of 118, but it's uneven being really high in some areas and below average in others. He plays sports and loves the interaction.

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dawn', 'M')y experience with diagnosis for my son was interesting, to say the least. It wasn't suggested to me by a teacher though. I had our oldest son tested for a slew of things starting from age 3.

[Dawn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'W')ere you happy with the professionals who diagnosed/cared for your son?

[Daphne64]

I believe a lot of ADHD behavior is just an intolerance to artificial flavors and colors, with red dye #40 being the most common culprit.

Also, while ADHD/ ADD is not the same as autism spectrum disorders, my theory is that ADHD/ADD, dyslexia (and other learning disabilities) and speech apraxia are very closely related. I consider them subclinical cases of autism spectrum disorders. (I am talking about true ADHD, not the pinworm or red dye intolerance types).

A lot of Asberger's kids are initially diagnosed as ADD/ADHD, for example. About half of autistic kids have speech apraxia so bad that it renders them mute.

And of course all those things have increased greatly in incidence in the last 20 years.

[JPL]

Interesting conversation - as an Aspie myself I think I can definitely stress the childhood stage as a difficult one. It's a bit like trying to get onto a subway train when you don't know where it's going, when it's supposed to arrive, and what you are supposed to do when you get to the other end. Everyone else seems to know where it's going, but not you.

Also the harder people try to understand us the more difficult the conversation gets. Alnd I really do hate this definition of 'normality' as if it is some sort-of 'right way of being'. It isn't - it's just the way that most people think - the consensus trance, if you like.

But...If Aspies were in the majority then I think the world would be very different (obviously!) but then I also think that 'normal' would be us, and you lot would be 'atypical' - you NT's would be, from the Aspie point of view, illogical, neurotic & bordering on psycotic, trivial, self-obsessed, emotionally weak, social outcasts. You see it goes both ways. We could then write papers about how to integrate YOU with OUR (normal) society and thus it would go on...

JP

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dawn', ' ')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'D')id you spank him when he misbehaved?

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daphne64', 'I') believe a lot of ADHD behavior is just an intolerance to artificial flavors and colors, with red dye #40 being the most common culprit.

.

[Dawn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dawn', ' ')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'D')id you spank him when he misbehaved?

[Dawn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'S')chmuto clearly does not understand autism, of which AS is a form. Most people who haven't lived with it don't.

Though I very rarely feel the need to do so, I do spank my kid when I think it is the right thing to do. But spanking an autistic kid who is having a meltdown seems like a really counterproductive (not to mention cruel) thing to do under any circumstances. Adding physical pain and intensity to an already severely overloaded nervous system? Um, no. Maybe holding them still in a quiet, dark room, but not hitting.

But you can't reach people who are convinced they already know everything. Your kid isn't in the 80% of behaviorally challenged (wtf does that mean?) kids who need discipline, but he will never believe that. Do the parents of the other 20% get any credit or sympathy at all?

I'm actually surprised he said 80% instead of 99%. It sounds like he's relenting a bit. That's something, at least.

[jasonraymondson]

What did we do before drugs and tv?

[Schmuto]

Let me be clear:

I completely agree that there are kids with organic brain issues that cause them to have behavioral issues.

The classic Rain Man child sitting and spinning a plate for 3 hours straight is the classic example.

So I'm not sitting here trying to tell you that I think it's all hogwash.

What I am trying to communicate to young parents is the following:

BE A PARENT TO YOUR CHILD.

That's it.

Part of that (and please cite me on this) is that you are responsible for giving them unconditional love and unconditional discipline.

You see?

Always give them a hug and kiss to start the day and end the day.
Always tell them when they do well.
Always tell them that their horizons are what they make them for the most part.
And always tell them that you love them and will stand in front of bullets to protect them.

but

Never let their undesirable behaviors go unchecked.
Always discipline them when they need it.

If you dump your kids in daycare or in your parents' care all day, every day, you cannot fulfill either objective.

Young parents or soon to be parents, this is the most critical thing Doc Schmuto can teach you.

Do not be gulled into believing what corporate america and radical feminists want you to believe - that you can be a part time parent. That is not possible.

If you want to be a good parent, you must be there every day for your children, and you must show them unconditional love and unconditional discipline.

If you do this, your children will respect you and will develop into responsible, strong individuals.

Think about all the people out there who have a huge vested interest in convincing you that I'm lying or wrong:

Think about all the parents - and particularly mothers - who have abandoned their children to run off to work in order to buy more useless sh-t.

That iPhone each parent has? How many hours away from their kids did they work to pay for it? How about the McMansion. Reminds me of a neighbor in VA who built a house down the street from us that sold for 1.3 million. Why was it sold? Because the woman got tired of being alone in the house while her husband was working and her grown kids never around. Whoops. She found out the hard way that money creates more problems than it solves (cite me on that one too).

So you have to understand this:

When Doc Schmuto comes on here and tells you that both parents working outside of the home is tantamount to abandoning your children, there are about 100 million Americans who either must:

Agree with me, and therefore admit that they have failed as parents and have abandoned their kids,
OR
Disagree with me and fight till they hit the grave that I am wrong, and that they can be good parents even though they aren't around more than half the time.

Think about that.

It's equivalent to trying to convince a woman who has had an abortion that abortion is murder. Her choice (ironically) is to either agree with you, in which case she admits she murdered her child, or to fight to the grave that there were too few cells to constitute a human life.

How many people are strong enough to see the light if by seeing the light they see their own horrible disfigurement (Damn, I am on a freaking roll here).


To conclude, HDD/ADD/Aspergers all have one thing in common (from crappipedia):

The exact cause is unknown, . . . brain imaging techniques have not identified a clear common pathology.[1]

In other words, the only way to diagnose these "disorders" is through observing behavior - there is no abnormal brain pathology.

What this means to you, the young parent or wannabe parent, is simple:

Most (not all) HDD/ADD/AS cases are simply the labeling of behavior rather than the diagnosis of a brain defect.

If you understand that, you'll understand why it is so critical to the corporate culture of America that promotes 2 parents working that parents never are forced to think that, who wudda thunk, parenting of children, in large part, determines children's behavior.

Rather than force people to face this fact - there is a causal relationship between parents being there and taking care of their kids - the establishment, which includes corporate america and neofeminists, both of whom want to legitimize and continue both father and mother working, gives everybody a get out of jail card by offering the official seal of approval to kids who, because of parent neglect, develop behavioral issues.

The official seal is the one the headshrinkers call - fill in the blank.

Like I said, the kid who plays out our house was diagnosed with it. I finally cleared my conscience and told the father what I thought, which is that him and his wife being away from the home for 70% of the girl's life and leaving her to be raised alone in her clueless grandparents "care" caused all of her "symptoms".

Oh well, the truth or friends. Not a tough a call as it may seem.


If you drug your child you are evil, and while I don't believe in hell , you certainly would deserve a short stay there.

As to when to spank kids?

Easy. You start spanking the day that the kid is cognitively able to strongly associate the pain of the spanking with the misbehavior.
Spanking a child who doesn't know why you are spanking him is abusive.

Each of my kids was different.
Figure by 1 and a half average.

By two for sure.

Like I said, if you are consistent, definite, and firm, you don't need to spank a lot, but each kid is different.

But i'll say this - Each of my kids only bites me one time - a quick nip back on their finger completely communicates the point to them - that hurt, here's how it felt, don't do it again.

It's easy, and it's mostly natural - only in the screwed up modern world to parents second-guess such a basic thing as giving your kid a shot on the ass for using crayons on the wall.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '
')That is not true of autism, including AS. You are incorrect.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'Y')eah JPL, I can ask my husband "what were you doing on April 23, 1982?" and half the time he will be able to tell me where he was, what he did that day, and what the weather was like - even if it wasn't a particularly special day. Plenty of other things I could write about, some very similar to the other stuff you wrote, but it wouldn't be fair to him so I won't.

There is plenty of research where brains of autistic spectrum people have been clearly shown to process information differently than NTs, including using imaging devices. It's normally diagnosed by symptoms, but nevertheless the statement Schmuto made was wrong.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'Y')eah JPL, I can ask my husband "what were you doing on April 23, 1982?" and half the time he will be able to tell me where he was, what he did that day, and what the weather was like - even if it wasn't a particularly special day.

[WildRose]

Schmuto, I actually agree with a lot of your parenting style.

But I maintain that stay-at-home parents are not necessarily better than working parents. A parent has to
attend to the job at hand (parenting), and sometimes the parent staying home with the kids does not attend to the task
at hand (parenting) but spends infinite numbers of hours on the phone, computer, watching TV, visiting friends, anything but
interacting with the kids. Some working parents spend their days at work when the kids are in school or care and then focus their
time on the kids as soon as everyone's back home. Of course, we could argue about how many hours per day parents need to
spend with their children, how much attention each child needs, all of that quality time stuff, etc.

I chose to work only part-time as soon as my first child was born 23 years ago, and I'm still working part-time. I've received mixed reactions
from other parents because of that decision, including criticism and envy. Being a parent is a learning experience. I didn't know everything about
it when I began, and I certainly wasn't through making mistakes when my third child came along, as each child is different and circumstances are
different. A lot of things become easier with more experience, though.

[Schmuto]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', ' ')the statement Schmuto made was wrong.